「Shifting Connections」：内向的な人のためにVRで創発的な社会的ダイナミクスを育む

The Voices of VR Podcast. piece that is unique where there's a couple of pieces that were air, fire, air being the kind of emergent social dynamics and fire being a lot more of the agency, interactivity, participation. And so this is a piece that was using virtual reality and mixed reality to be able to take like eight people in a room. You kind of put on the VR headset, you enter into this magic circle, and then you're entering in this space of abstractions, a lot of error elements, these lines and points where your body gets transformed into this kind of abstraction. And so it's a way for more introverted people to enter into this space to be able to feel comfortable kind of playing around with the different affordances of the interactions that are coming in.

But at the end of it, it's more around like how you are moving around in a space. It's about shifting connections. And so ways of using this platonic realm of ideal forms of representing these different relational dynamics between you and the other people in the space. And how you move your body is also changing and modulating those abstracted connections. And so it's kind of a simple idea or concept of very sparse and abstract, but really effective at allowing people to enter into the space and creating kind of a possibility space that you can explore without a lot of explicit instructions for what specifically to do, but allowing people to create their own ways of engaging and playing with each other. So depending on who you see it with, you may have completely different types of interactions. And I think it's worth noting also that this was selected to be a part of If It Doc Lab. I'm about to go out to Amsterdam, and I'm looking forward to seeing it again. But it kind of fits into this broader kind of shared realities using immersive technologies, XR technologies, to create these different types of emergent social dynamics. It's kind of air, fire, center of gravity that's focusing in on those relational and social dynamics

and also ways of inviting people to interact and play with each other in new and novel ways. So we're covering all that and more on today's episode of the Voices of VR podcast. So this interview with Yen happened on Sunday, September 6, 2026 at Venice Immersive in Venice, Italy. So with that, let's go ahead and dive right in. Hello, my name is Dong Yin and I'm from Taiwan. I have been working with VR for six years. This is my third time in Venice Film Festival in the immersive part and I'm bringing Shifting Connection this time. Great, and maybe you could give a bit more context as to your background and your journey into the space. Yes, so I have a theater background and as a theater director, I have been using multimedia, such as projection or like real-time generated video. So somehow that paved my way to make VR worse. So it started with a VR film, and then slowly it became a free-rooming experience.

And two, three years ago, I started this project called Free Your Head, which is a group of people around 40. I mean, in Taiwan, we did like 80 people together. but then there will be a performer giving signal to all the rest of the headset and people to move their head together. So that will be the Free Your Head project. So coming this collective experience in VR, I then got invited to make a theater work called 8 Degrees of Freedom, which 20 audience will arrive in the theater 30 minutes ago before the show and then they will be performing for the group of audience with our headset. and so they come and they one-up, they get acquainted with the headset, so they know what to do if something goes wrong or something. And so actually I start to imagine the idea that something like the dancer giving signal to the group of audience moving their head, I start to see a line between them. So I start to work with the developer, the engineer,

if we can make this kind of virtual connection visible, we're in VR. So there's a section of that, about all these connections. So there will be virtual lines from your chest or from your hand, and then people will be connected. People will, you know, move and wave their hand. I was actually thinking about how do we make people move and make people want to, without telling them to, you know, now move your body or something, you know, but they automatically want to do something. and how can they collaborate to do something even. So we have this prototype of lines and connections. And then I got an invitation from the museum asking if I can make that work somehow possible in a museum setting. That's where Shifting Connection started. And then we made this quite short and lighter work for 10 people, this time in Venice for eight. So people go in, and then the only thing they need to know

is to use their hand to snap or to grasp like a virtual orb. And that's the only gesture. It doesn't really evolve for anything. But then people start to collaborate and then also share in this experience. Yeah, and so there's not very many other social participatory interactive projects here. I think you're the only one of this type that's here this year. And so I really quite enjoyed it. But for my audience, they likely have not been able to see it or know much about it. So maybe you could just describe what is Shifting Connections and what is it that you wanted to achieve with it? Actually, so eight people go into the space together wearing a headset. So I would just narrate what's happening. and then in the beginning they saw like a portal and then they crossed the portal between the reality, you know, so you see everything. You see the room from the pass-through and then you go in

and then you then get an avatar from the very big magic orb and you have a geometric shape. So everyone, ten of them, eight of them, is actually in a very simplified shape. It's like a circle, but everyone's in a circle Yeah, yeah, and then you realize you can move your hand And then this big orb burst into a geometrical, how do you say that? How do you describe that? Well, there's a lot of kind of abstractions And so you have a lot of points and lines, and those lines are connected You have the orbs, and so you have the eight people that are in this circle And you have one mechanic that you're shown at the very beginning but it's left to be very open and abstract as to what exactly you do. It's sort of like you see new orbs kind of pop up, and it's up to you to kind of play and to move it around to see what happens. But there's no goal or thing that you're trying to achieve. It's just more of how can you have a collective play experience

where you're exploring the possibility space of the thing that you're creating. And it's very void space and abstractions and lines and points, but the lines are also connected to each other, to people in different ways. So as you progress, it has many different mechanics for ways that the abstractions of the lines that are connecting to people with the geometric shapes are changing in different ways, but all pointed towards how can you get people to kind of move and interact to change how the virtual representations of these connections is also modified. Yes. I think so in the beginning, the audience learned that they can collaboratively change the shape of this big structure in front of them, and then the structure also flow and fly away, and then there's new structure. So it kind of the first three minutes is really like to understand this, how is this world consist and constructed, and then there are other connections, there are other factors that you cannot really,

you know, it's out of your control. There are also orbs that you cannot grasp them. They will fly towards your hand, but you cannot control them. There are also this kind of mechanics that we designed. And also they gathered and sometimes they fly very, very far away. And the line also started to be a bit floating, so they are a bit like waving. So in a way, it's a rather abstract but simple universe that we try to create. So there are also parts that you realize why you are creating all these shapes, all these plans. And some of them you can actually see the other participant in the end. And so you realize the more you do it, the more you can see the whole world. And then that's the ending where you, so from the full VR virtualities, and then you sort of bring yourself and bring the whole team back to reality

with, you know, this pass-through function. That's about it, really. Yeah. Thanks for that. It's a great summary. It helps give a sense of the architecture of the piece. And, yeah, the very beginning when you walk through the portal, it's a really nice use of mixed reality because we're all in this kind of like room that you have constructed in the installation, but there's like an onboarding room where people are getting their headsets on and then they're walking into the main room where there's some geometric shapes on the floor, but that's mostly for tracking purposes because you have an orange little circle on the ground that indicates where each person is supposed to stand. And so you end up having these people that are standing in a circle and going through all these different interactions. And, yeah, the ending with the kind of return to the portal was really nice, and I enjoyed it. There was somebody who was saying that they felt more comfortable dancing and moving around when you didn't see people. But once they felt they were revealed, you get more of the self-consciousness. And so there's something elegant in a way that you're encouraging people to be more free of moving around.

But then kind of revealing, you would hope that you would be able to get people to be loosened enough to continue to be moving around. I didn't feel like I was impeded by any way by people seeing me. I wanted people to be moving more, if anything. But I felt like some people, they still have this self-conscientious worry about how they might be perceived in these different situations. And so when they felt that they were shown, they told me that they felt like they weren't able to be as free as they were when they were occluded. I think that's really what's happening, really. Because, you know, you'd really see people being kind of silly, shake their hands, shake their hips together. But then, you know, honestly, because we are social animals, right, we behave, we are in a festival. So people do, there are times that people start to feel very shy. But the people also laugh out through the journey. They start to, sometimes they create the game that they will pass the little pink orb, I mean, the orb in the end. Like, we didn't ask them to do that, but they share and it becomes very beautiful.

there's even one group of audience that in the beginning they they were like should we hold our hand together and they hold their hand which you know almost can kill the hand tracking right almost but then it's beautiful that people start to generate things as if you are like kids you know generate again or play out of nothing really and i think i've never i think to be honest i am someone who don't really like to interact with, for example, in a theater show, I really don't want to interact with any performer or any kind of, you know, break the fourth wall kind of thing. But for me to make this is not dreaming or hoping or asking the audience to be super free after 10 or 12 minutes. It's more like, you know, let's go into the virtuality together, but then we also have the portal to go back, and then we generate it, And then let's see, I think people find it amazing that in the beginning they were strangers.

So people actually tell me that. And then after the 10 minutes of playing around and playing together, they are not strangers anymore. I think that's beautiful to say. Yeah. Yeah, and so this is an interesting piece that when I look at the different elemental genres, this is sort of like air fire, so social dynamics, but people really engaging and participating. And typically with, like, the interactivity and game design, there's a lot of, like, user testing because you can't script these things out. You have to, like, come up with an idea, then test how people respond to it. But then there's a challenge of, like, literally there's so many different types of people that are out there that are going to respond to things differently. So, like, it's a challenge of, like, how do you then design something that is going to have certain interaction affordances that then, for your own design intent, people actually live into that. And so that's typically solved by a lot of user testing, which is a lot of gamers. And so I'm just curious what your design process was like for, like, where did you begin and how did you continue to test your theories about how people might respond to these different design choices that you're making?

So as I was sharing that there is a theater production one year ago and we spent maybe six months developing all kind of different magic, let's say, and then we test it. I would say every one month especially in the ending where things are more clear we always have one test with let say ten or ten audiences in an afternoon and then we can review, we can ask how they feel. And so the theater production, in the end we perform four or five times. So that actual performance already gave us quite some understanding of what is possible. but actually in that performance the whole show most of the time the audience have pass-through function so they are kind of very comfortable they can always see what's going on outside but they also have other things to play with and for this one this one I think we follow the same pattern

after we have accumulated a bit of something a section or some functionality then we can just invite people coming to our studio I think that's the beauty that we now have a studio in Taipei where we really develop and bake in the studio so yeah and a lot of this piece is also trying to bring people together in a new and novel way and so just curious if you could elaborate on what is it about the VR medium that has drawn you to try to create these collective group social dynamics that are kind of emergent amongst like how people are related to each other I'm just curious how you got down this path and where you're going. Very interestingly, as I was sharing that, you know, something like this kind of term, like immersive theater, as a theater director, I feel so shy or not used to it. I mean, working with audience is so crazy because they have very different background.

And this time, for Shifting Connection, it's commissioned by a museum and it's show four and a half months in Taipei Final Museum. so that we generally just have a very wide range of audience from different countries, different cultures, even a wide range of age difference. So there will be kids around eight or seven playing with their grandma or the other elderly audience. So the design process will be very much about, I often love to quote Steyer. He once said that it's design issues that fit everyone. To me, that almost doesn't make sense, right? that there will not be a shoes that fits everyone. But then how can I make sure that a lot of first-timers, first VR-goers to feel okay to engage, to try to even walk and to know, oh, that's another person. And then jumping to this community or this collective experience, I think it's just because the thing is we have the magic hand,

I mean this function of hand tracking for a long time. But then sometimes when I can see, especially I think with pass-through, when you kind of see your own hand, but then you grab a virtual bow, it's still quite interesting. And I love to share this kind of feeling with the others. So I guess I didn't, to be honest, I didn't create this work to say, oh, let's all be connected. We are all, you know, like in the same ecosystem. I don't really have any big statement that I already have. I just thought I want to see how this can reflect or generate ideas or things. And then I do see people start to make possibility and try different things. So, yeah. So when you say you want to see how people generate ideas, can you elaborate on that? Specifically what you mean in terms of like, do you mean more of like you're creating a possibility space

and you want to see how they're exploring that possibility space? Or do you mean that they're creating their own possibility space? In a way, a bit similar to what I shared before. For example, there is a section where there are floating bowls, and the floating bowls will sometimes connect to different people's chests. So at first, it was a visual, but I never thought people would actually grasp the bowl. And by default, the bowl, you can grasp it. so actually in the ending scene the bow shouldn't exist but then because some people grab it and keep it so it didn't go away in the previous scene and then it kept on repeating so I'm sharing something happened outside my expectation or the design but then when people keep it people start to play and start to make game out of it for example pass it or connect it or play, just share there are so many people share the bow, you know, exchange the orb.

Yeah, so that has been beautiful. Yeah, so like open for a lot of possibilities and just seeing how people find new ways of connecting to each other. Yes, definitely. And this time in Venice also I hear an audience member share with me. I find it very beautiful. It's also something I didn't thought of because I have been so obsessed almost by, you know, making connection, whether it's your body with the others or the outer world connecting, you know, so it's not always human-centered or something. But then this audience shared with me that you can open yourself to connections. You can also choose not to. But even if you exclude yourself, you are still involved because the connection travel around you. And I think that's a very nice way to say it. So this work is not so much about we are all together, we are the world, we are the same or something. It's also about, for her, for this audience who share with me, it can also be about being alone in the universe.

And that's a beautiful perspective to look at. Yeah, is there any other experiences that you've had that are close to what you've been able to create with Shifting Connections? Oh. Any inspirations or anything that you were kind of building off of or taking any sort of design inspirations from? I would say that when I created this work, some people, one of the assistants who also have a theater background, actually she showed me some theater practice or like workshop games that they play with actual real threads. So they actually create a geometric shape with real lines. collaboratively but I didn't do that workshop but I would say that there are also visual artists who have been making like you know gigantic black lines and the kind of urban lines in a in the visual art world but yeah I don't really I mean there must be something that inspired this

but currently I cannot really pop up one like VR experience yeah you mentioned that you had stage some sort of theatrical precursor to this, but it sounds like that might also have been in mixed reality. Maybe just elaborate a little bit more around, because you have shifting connections here. Did you say that there's another thing that you did in theater? Maybe just kind of describe what that was and what that looked like. Yeah. So one year ago, we premiered a theater work where there are VR audiences, and there are also audiences without VR in the auditorium. And the project is called Eight Degrees of Freedom. It was in National Taichung Theater. so the audience will be wearing VR and they will be jumping to different scenes and in different scenes they will realize they have different tasks and also there is a performer on the stage sort of dance with them so there will be moments where we prompt, you know, freeze or stop so people will sort of stop in the moment and the dancer will be, you know, sort of dancing, walking around them

and they could also draw because drawing in VR is one, drawing is kind of one of the first things that everybody sort of jumped into 10 years ago with a tilt brush, quill, and everything. And it has been amazing, eye-opening for artists and even people, like amateur people, has been making amazing work in VR. But still, not enough people have drawn in it. But draw together in a virtual space, draw together in a physical space, But then the line brush and strokes are floating in the air. It's like, it's a beautiful experience. Because I think the behavior, the movement of drawing is nearest of what I try to make people move. So how and why do they start to draw? What do I draw, right? So there will be different sections. Maybe, you know, follow the dancer's arm or follow his hip. so that you kind of thought the dance will go really dynamically up and down diagonally or something.

So that created an interesting scene. Yeah, and imagine with a piece like this, there's a range of different things that you can do as a designer to try to push people towards certain types of interactions. It feels like that on the scale of authored interactions from open and generative interactions, This is like on the far extreme of the generative interactions where there's like a few simple mechanics, but really nothing more directing people towards something. And I think there are probably some people in my group that maybe would have done better with like more like limited choices of things to do rather than an infinite possibility space where they almost have a paradox of choice of they don't make any choices because they don't know quite what to do. So it feels like this spectrum between how much authored direction do you give and little pointers to people versus how much do you distrust that people will play and find their own way. And it's more of an open sandbox at that point. But the open sandbox has also got this group dynamic where the more people

that are doing that kind of interesting exploration makes it more interesting for everyone versus if there's a critical mass of people who aren't necessarily pushing the edge of that play. So just curious how you handle that spectrum and as a designer, how to maybe tilt it in a certain direction. This is really interesting because when we design it and when we test it with audience members, I always constantly remind myself and the team that the audience, if they choose not to do anything, they can still enjoy, they can still see the whole work. So I will say that I think, let's say, we are in the museum. We don't always understand everything, right? In a way, we actually feel more, we are more open to not have meaning, to just feel it, I think. But somehow, maybe in a VR experience, when it's very connected to game, drama, or documentary, people want to do something, people want to be more sure about things.

So I think, okay, maybe this is a time where as much as it's so much about, oh, people to play together or something, it can also be a quiet moment that you just observe, you just observe something happening, something connected to you, something doesn't. So to put it in one sentence, but even if you don't do anything, I think it will work because the others will do. And there will always be someone do something. and even if they don't, it will still continue. I mean, the app will, you know, somehow have a timeline to continue making it work. What type of trends have you seen in terms of how people react and play with shifting connections? Let me think. I mean, at the moment, it's, you know, some people, So this time, because the floor is not very even and their point is a bit pointy,

so we didn't dare to ask people to take off the shoes, even though some work they do. But anyway, people also kind of lie on the floor, sit or kind of swing or look up or something. When I work with a group of very different people, I kind of need to make sure that it's open. It's okay. If you don't mind, you can do it. Yeah, so people try to... But also, it's a rather short work, so it's not having a lot of difference, let's say. In a way, I also see similarities, especially in Venice Hill Festival, when we see so many people in different backgrounds, they can share the... because it's so simple with our languages. And so, yeah, I see similarities more than I see different variations, almost. Yeah. Yeah, and what have been some of the most surprising things that people have done that you've observed in this piece? Yeah, just as I say, people start to hold their hand.

People start to make a game to share bows, even though that was not expected. And the other thing is actually there are people who found this work very emotional because I thought it was quite uplifting or like quite chill, you know, like nothing too serious or sad or lonely, right? Very different from my previous work. But then there has been so many people told me it has an emotional weight to them. And to be honest, as a creator, I feel rather surprised actually because there are also people who, you know, Some people feel like oh I repeatedly doing the same thing right Why Why why why But then they start to share that when you have this avatar so simple and when you are all the same and in the end you also see that you don't have control, but then the avatar flies away. And when I created,

I just thought it's very nice to see yourself lift or be free. But then I didn't know that it would create an emotion. There are people actually cry after this vision. So that, to me, is very surprising. I think that when you actually can throw yourself or reflect yourself in the work, I guess that's also why the work is so, in a way, so simple. It's like a piece of paper that you can reflect different kind of things, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, that last thing where you're kind of floating up, my recollection is that the root was kind of still there, So you felt like you're kind of stretching out, but also like a little bit of an out-of-body experience because you had just been tightly coupled to this embodiment, and then you're kind of shifting the shape of that embodiment where you can still have some ways that you can see the impacts of your body movement. So it feels a little bit of like an out-of-body type of experience. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So one of the other things that I remember from the piece

is that you have these little cords that are connecting you to other people. And I really savored in, like, dramatically moving my body in a very exaggerated way because it sort of created this wave of, like, moving up, either jumping up and down or moving left and right because there's, like, these cords and tethers that are from us to each of the other people in the group and that the more that people move around, the more chaotic movement of these chords between us start to move. And so I just really enjoyed that type of like, how are my movements connecting to other people? I mean, metaphorically, it's sort of like we're all connected or we all have these tethers between us. We're all in relationship. And so I really appreciated the poetry of that very abstract void space with these bodies that we had been accustomed to. But we have connections to each other, but it's also being slightly modulated based upon how aggressively we're moving our bodies. So, yeah, I just really appreciated that.

I'd love to hear any other comments on what you were thinking about how people would potentially react or interact with these tethers of these lines between each other. Oh, yeah, yeah. I find that the audience in Venice, I don't know if it's a festival or if there's a lot of people in this area, so they know. They're so smart. As soon as they see it, they see the line that is connecting them. they start to move like up and down they move a lot in order to make the wave you know they know that it's not about your hand it's about your body so um that has been very interesting i also think because the work was previously in the museum so so you you still know that a lot of people is watching you i guess or maybe people in taipei is slightly still more shy i guess also i mean this is a festival so everybody's you know in this kind of I mean we are somehow in the art bubble probably so people do express themselves and do play with all these so this is something new that's

move our body and actually I can share that there are a few geometric shape that floating in the middle of the work that that's the first time that you can actually see pass through and that was made for this Venice version because in Taipei, a lot of people stay where they are. So I want to create something that people can actually move. And I think that kind of works. Yeah, people start to, oh, but at first I thought it might be a little bit of a spoiler for the end, but I thought, okay, it can be a nice, you know, already like kind of a nice hint that in the end you see it's like a nice connection rather than a spoiler, yeah. Right, yeah. No, I really appreciated that last kind of scene where you're able to have these dots that were just kind of these abstract lines, then create a plane, and that plane creates like a pass-through window so you can see other people in the room with you. And so, yeah, I just really appreciated that.

And in terms of moving, you're kind of set with when you walk into the space, here's an orb where you're supposed to go. I found myself being somewhat inclined to stay in that general, like, region and kind of be in relationship to the people around me. I think in part because I knew that if we all like cluster in the same spot, then the whole mechanics of the experience might be different. So I wanted to preserve the integrity of whatever was arising so that if we each have a part to play, that I don't want it to be a broken experience because we're not actually where we're supposed to be. So just to hear your thoughts on whether or not you've noticed that most people are staying generally where they came in or if they're moving around more or more of education for people to mix around a little bit more? I must say that there are indeed a lot of people, even though they move a little bit, they walk a few steps, but somehow they find their way back to where they are roughly. And there are times that people move so much, all of them.

I mean, I think also, I think there are times when they laugh more or make sounds or talk a little bit. With the sound, we are so, humans are so, how to say that, so smart that they don't crush to each other. So, yeah, there are times that people move and they don't just go back. But also, even if they move a lot in the middle, in the ending scene where they see things floating up, they will always be kind of back to a circle. I also think it's because the power of circle is the only pattern that allows everybody to see clearly. So people actually step back to their position or to a position that is around, it's a circle. It's actually a social etiquette to make sure that I'm not in the other's way, I'm not blocking the other's view. So it's a very polite society, I must say. It's very structured. We unconsciously or consciously, you know, it's still very social.

We know we are here. Yeah. Yeah, and just as you say that, when there's a circle of people, I feel way more comfortable being in the circle than being in a way that kind of disrupts the integrity of the circle. So I think there's also a part of that, of wanting to maintain the integrity of that circle. And in terms of your background in the theater, you know, a couple of years ago when there was a Freer Mind, And that was a piece that was more around you, like, choreographing people's movements of their body using the VR as an affordance. And here you're, again, kind of moving into more dance and choreography or, like, encourage people to move their body that may be a little bit more distant or further from what we see traditionally in the theatrical tradition. I mean, there's dance in theater as well. But it seems like there's more and more that you're getting into this kind of choreographic engineering, emergent social dynamics within the context of these immersive spaces. And I'm just curious to hear a little bit more, like, where did that begin with you? Like, when did you have this switch where you wanted to really think about how people were moving their body within the social context,

within an immersive environment? I think maybe replying these questions from a little bit far away, like, I like to observe people. like when I'm in a restaurant or when I'm waiting for buzz or anything or on the you know on the metro I often like to think or almost make a background story for passerby and so I find it very interesting that when people are in VR they are in really they are really in the other world literally right they are in the virtual world and I start to want to imagine what they are looking at and that kind of thing. But, I mean, you know, five years ago, maybe more, people have been saying how great VR is, but it's a long, it's hard to share. So there are more collective work, but then, in a way, there are, let's say, I feel there are more group viewing possibility, but then you hardly can do much in it together.

And then, yeah, I love to see, oh, by the way, when I was in high school, I also choreographed, I also make this presentation of, it's not cheerleader in the States, but it's kind of like every class needs to make a presentation of a cheerleading thing. And that's a lot to do with making patterns of people, you know, I don't know if you say that, but making formation and then do all kinds of things. And I was involved in that. I enjoy seeing that. So I think that's, and I think also in a lot of, maybe not just theater, theater, but in performing arts in general, there are also a lot of observation about daily life, about everyday movement, about, it's not so much, it's not really so much about, yeah, let's move, let's exercise. It's really about... but, okay, jumping. Jumping back to be together in VR. So, I guess maybe it's...

Okay, move is very important, but maybe what's more important is be together and do something together. So, it's in a way actually very simple. It's something so simple that almost I always afraid people feel a bit bored. bored and yeah so what does it mean to be together in a what does it mean to be together first of all in a physical space like we gather we travel across the road to or across the city to go to a venue to see a work of vr and then we we become someone else we we do silly thing we try this we play we share and then so there's its magic of vr as a mask almost as we say in the beginning that allows you to be silly, to do things, and then also you realize, oh, we are back. So, yeah, I want to make this experience that people can actually try and see to be together in VR.

After you've seen people playing it here throughout Venice, are there any things that you want to try to add or experiment with as you move forward to see what else is possible with bringing people together? I mean, I know as an intuition, and I also make that possible, because currently the bow cannot be thrown. Because if we want to position the bow, there needs to be a fixed one, not a throwable one. But then I think maybe I should have like one chapter where, or maybe in the current chapter, maybe there are some bows that are in different color or shape, but you know, oh, that's a throwable one, that kind of thing. and it will even come back when it hits a virtual wall. So, because I think that's where the fun is, because now it just stays there somehow. The floating boat kind of flies, but yeah, I want to try to have a bit more of that. And also, a lot of people are, it's very, very cute, across age, background, nationality or anything.

A lot of people, when they see the line, a long line of them their chest with the structure they always do it something like this like they're they're pulling on the rope like they're climbing it they want to pull it in like a kite yeah yeah yeah yeah so i think that's like i love to see this i didn't know it's possible i didn't say it's a kite right but it's there's a line connecting up and you would just yeah there isn't even any effect and yeah so i'm uh i would like to i wouldn't say that i'm like developing it to the next stage but there are things that i will play yeah yeah and i think one of the trends within the industry is this the location-based entertainment which is trying to have like enough people to do throughput but normally they're observing and more passively consuming and so talking to a representative from interspace VR, the desire to have more interactive experiences. And I think what you're doing is more

interactive social experiences. And so with the pressures of LBE, it's trying to get a lot of people through as many people per hour as it can to make it profitable. So just curious if some of the pressures of LBE that you're more interested in exploring this in part because it's also part of the pressures of the industry to have enough people coming together. And so if that's something that interests you to find out how can you connect people as a group and play together in any way definitely i think this time in the festival we already we have some like interesting conversation to present this work and a lot of people obviously always ask how many can you do how many can you do yeah and then i think it will be it's also how big the space is right and then how will people do after this and can people actually go for a drink after this without taking it so we can still you know match making people you know like connecting people in a specific way or something but I mean I think generally we are continuing the festival around and then we are gonna collaborate with our

venue or maybe conversion venue if there is a connecting work to it or there ways for them to think it possible Because you know in a way this can be something that can happen in the mall or something right? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I haven't really personally made anything for the commercial venue, but I think I'm open for this possibility. Yeah. And did you say that this piece of Shifting Connections has been running for three or four months already? Yes. And where is that at? Maybe just describe, you know, the context for where it's at. Yes. So it's commissioned by Taipei Fire Museum in Taipei, and it premiered on May, and it's currently still running. It finished on the 20th of September in 2026. So when we were commissioned, we already know that it needs to show almost 500 times, four to six times a day. And so already, you know, how do we operate it? How is it simple enough so the technician doesn't need to be there? You know, the museum crew can do it. So all that needs to be put in account.

So I was also thinking, okay, if we successfully make it, we will know that this build is very robust. It can handle, you know, even the headset will be running for, you know, two months, nonstop almost. So, yeah. Yeah. What have been some of the reactions to the shifting connections there where it's been premiered? I think I hear very positive feedback and people are very very happy with how they can open up the possibility to see the other, they can also close and what else? There are moment that I thought people might feel a bit when everything fly away they cannot do much and then their audience told me how relieving that was or something they enjoy so I do see

that there are sections I know people have different interests in different sections yes and how is the Venice audience differed from what you've seen so far since you say you like to watch people. It seems like it's fun for you to kind of see how people react. And so just curious to hear how Venice has been doing it differently than what's happening there in Taiwan. Yeah, I mean, we are here in a beautiful Italian summer and people are, you know, running between projects. But people have been very generous and people smile so much and talk and then, you know, chat after the work. And then, you know, even though sometimes you're so tired in the festival, you have been doing, you know, one after another film or experience but then I feel people somehow I feel this is a kind of relaxing relief for for the whole festival experience but also because we are most of us are away from home right so people are quite focused on experiencing things so I think in Taipei because we were in a big white box and

the ceiling is probably about maybe 12 or 13 meters high it's a really like high big museum with projections on the floor and then there's also moving theatrical lights and so it's quite a beautiful to see from the outside but also yeah it's more like probably a little bit colder or cooler rather than here in this setting so yeah a very different experience yeah yeah nice nice and and where do you take it here from now where what's next for the shifting connections? It's not confirmed yet, but we do have a few festival showing interest, and then, you know, even the technicians here to check out how do we kind of operate that, so that'll be quite nice, and also venues. There will be venues already have this kind of technology in-house, and I think we will be, at least we will be in Europe very soon again. Yes. Yeah, it's kind of a, you know, in a special context, it's also a bit of a palette cleanser or something that's light. There's

There's a lot of heavy pieces here, and so it's kind of a light, connective, joyful piece that's a little bit different contrast from some of the work that's shown here. Yes, definitely. I mean, I think as you say, I also see your chart and this analyze of the context, and it is quite different. Sometimes I wonder why, but I think having a theater background and working, Because in Free Your Head, everyone is basically a solo work. We just put them together in a way. But then with what the technology is nowadays possible to put everybody in the virtual space only using standalone VR assets, which is amazing. And so I continue this thread and I start to see possibilities. piece yes yeah this was the only air fire piece of social dynamics with agency and interactivity and in the context there was like a number of other community pieces however most of those

community pieces are you in a vr piece watching uh community people doing things and so you're more people watching from a ghostly perspective rather than being embodied and participating within the context of the community i think in that sense the speech is fairly unique and i really like that because there's a piece i'm not sure if you've seen it called handle with care So, yeah, I'm just curious to hear some of your thoughts on that piece because I feel like there's a lot of emergent social dynamics that they were able to do with Handle With Care that I feel is similar here but pretty different in the sense that you're more around embodied interactions without a lot of thinking or talking. But what I really appreciated about Handle With Care was this way of cultivating emergent social dynamics, and I feel like there's a way that you're leaning towards that as well, of trying to create these light little platonic forms that are helping to guide people for new ways that they could operate and interact within a group that is aspiring towards this similar type of emergent social dynamics that I personally felt with Handle With Care. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. I tried Handle With Care two times.

First, it's in the lab situation, and then they bring the actual work back last year. And it's really quite extreme in a way, right? It's like just the bugs, just this. Let's do it. And then there's nothing like a VR headset that you are not hiding behind a virtual avatar. You are you, right? You have all kinds of tasks. I mean, you need to get people's drink order. You need to take a photo even with a paper camera. All that. That was so, it was fun. And I think the group makes a huge difference. Also, the setting, who are we? And I think I hear their research process. So also quite a lot of tryouts with audience, and the work also kind of evolved throughout their performance almost. And funnily enough, some group found this, I mean, how to say that, a company in Taiwan found this work, and then they are bringing it to Taipei.

I'm really intrigued to see how the audience in Taipei is going to engage with this. Because in a way, I find, at least in Taiwan, I feel Taiwanese people, I mean nowadays things change so much, right? But the idea of hang out, chit chat, you know, small talk, I feel somehow it doesn't really exist in our culture before at least 20 years ago. And I wonder how do people break the wall, how do people go up and then read the instruction and all that. I'm really interested to know even language-wise how they handle it. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty fascinating. Now that you've seen it in two previous contexts and I was also in two times. they were completely different. And from what I've heard from people who have seen it even more times, that every time this continues to be different. So, yeah, I think pieces like this that have a lot of social interaction kind of depend on the group of people that are there. And there's certain ways that you can't really control that too much. So that's such a brave work.

And I have been a big admirer of this company that we call them OG. Untrude, untrude. I'm mispronouncing it, but I can't. Yeah, utterly good. But I mean, the Taiwanese company inviting them found a great way to say, oh, gee, yeah. That's now their nickname in Taiwan, I think. Nice. Awesome. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of these types of immersive experiences and emergent social dynamics and VR, XR, mixed reality, what do you think the ultimate potential of all this might be and what it might be able to enable? this like you know it's a bit almost like oh no what is CVR in five years I think it's already it's actually starting to I start to reflect but I'm only here I mean I'm only sharing the work with the world for the first five days

and I'm personally I'm I'm growing ideas you know, make different adaptations of this work. And I think if we can have this, you know, for example, because when it shows four and a half months in Taipei, we really know how important it is to show people who has zero VR experience or free-rooming VR experience how simple it is, how fun it is, or how beautiful it is. and so I think the most important thing is that we keep touring this work, developing it, and then also it will, because this night I also talked to a lot of creators, and there will be some, there will also creators that, you know, excitingly showing me their phone, like, you know, we are like soulmate, I created this as a ritual performance in Russia, and then, you know, when they move their head, they create this pattern of lines on the screen.

I was like, wow, exactly, that looks like my other work, you know. But then, yeah, so there are definitely other, I mean, many people, I mean, today there is also a girl from the Bionnau College Blaine that she just pitched today, and then she saw the work, she also shared with me that she creates social games with avatars for people to go in and do a play together. So, I mean, I see not just me, there's definitely other artists, peers making work that trying to discuss, trying to reflect, to play, to think collaboratively about what is it to be together. What is a society, yeah. What is a future society even, yes. Beautiful. and is there anything else that's left and said or any final thoughts you'd like to share the broader immersive community I think I pretty much covers everything

I just want to say that I've been making several works throughout the past few years quite intensively and I thought next year I maybe can slow down and show the work and maybe not jump in to create something new but being back in this community on this island and I start to see word that pops up idea, and then I'm like, oh, maybe I'm going to do a test next month. That kind of thing also pops up. So this has been a very inspiring trip. Yes. Awesome. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. And like I said, this is a unique experience this year, and it reminds me a lot of these, like Handle With Care, the emergent social dynamics, but having ways of using a virtual reality to kind of help guide people. And, yeah, I think there's a lot of potentials for, you know, creating a little bit of graphic language where people can be guided a little bit to find unique interactions playing together. So, yeah, I think it's an area that the IPADOC Lab, there's also the whole initiative trying to revitalize civic society.

It's a shared realities initiative that they're doing from the CIIIC. So, yeah, there's ways in which that, you know, how do you use XR technologies to bring society together back again? And I feel like that there's aspects of your piece that are kind of pointing towards this revitalization of civic society, of what's it mean for us to be together as a community and to interact with each other. So, yeah, there's a lot of seeds of your work that's also pointing towards that, of where that can continue to grow and evolve. So, yeah, thanks so much for joining me here on the podcast to help break it all down. Thank you so much. Actually, this talk, this conversation, these questions also is very inspiring to me already. Quite amazing. Thank you so much. That's great to hear. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I just want to say that I'm really trying to live into the transformation economy, meaning I want to give away all this information for free, make it public accessible for not only you but the entire community. And if you find value in that, then please do consider supporting me on Patreon.

You know, I'm on this journey of trying to reach my 1,000 true fans. And if I have just $5 a month from that 1,000, I'll be in a much more solid and stable financial position. So really need your help to be able to get to that point. So if you enjoy what I'm doing here at the Voices of VR podcast, then please do consider supporting me at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening. Thank you.