『Yesterday Maybe』――死と向き合う詩的な空間の旅

The Voices of VR Podcast. So this was one of my favorite pieces that I saw this year, just because it was like really moving and evocative. And it's about death and what happens when you first learn about someone who's very close to you about them dying and the sort of confusion that happens around that. There's a quote from a poem from Camus, The Stranger, and it starts off saying something along the lines of, Mother died today or yesterday maybe, I don't know. the fact that the mother is dead is an established fact but there's all sorts of things or the details of it that are completely uncertain and so this was a phrase that the director matthew really

resonated with in terms of just really capturing the spirit and essence of what that experience is like when someone really close to you dies and the malaise that happens in the aftermath this is a piece that i see as a sort of earth air the earth being that it's very much grounded in the spatial journey, a little bit of this kind of dark ride where you're going through a spatial world. You don't have much control or agency. You're just kind of moving through it. And the air being in terms of like all this kind of symbolic dream logic and the semiotic transmission of meaning of how each of the different moments and scenes and beats are kind of referring to symbolic aspects of this overall experience that is around coping and dealing with death. So it's a really beautiful and poetic piece and just a lot of like a blank canvas for you to project your own experience on. And there's a series of these kind of earth-air using spatial, the language and grammar, and the air element being of like, how can we start to communicate in a way that doesn't use like normal language? Of course, there is some language in here in terms of, you know, the phrase from the Cameloon poem of mother died today or yesterday maybe.

I don't know. That's kind of a motif that is repeated throughout. But there's lots of other ways that is just nonverbal or using things beyond language and communication and just using the spatial architecture to create these experiences of symbolic meaning that you have to sort of decode. But it feels like the grammar of immersive storytelling, this whole genre of earth, air, in terms of being sort of very symbolic, and it feels like you're kind of walking through someone's dream. I think that dream logic is very apt. And certainly that grammar has been transferred over to film. But I think within XR, you have the ability to actually put someone within the context of that dream and take them on a whole journey. So I feel like it's part of the new emerging genres within XR. And something like I think last year, the Less Than Five Grams of Saffron was a similar one of those pieces that just did a lot of really beautiful, poetic, visual storytelling and the symbolic dream logic within that piece. Again, no language, no words, but able to communicate so much with the juxtaposition of these different embodied metaphors.

So, we're covering all that and more on today's episode of Voice of the VR podcast. So, this interview with Matthew happened on Saturday, September 5th, 2026, at Venice Immersive in Venice, Italy. So, with that, let's go ahead and dive right in. I'm Matyvenikout. I'm a creator and director in VR content, mostly in VR. And from time to time, XR, we would say XR is a larger, wider playground. I would say I come from the video game and I start to make animation. I started by creating a short movie of animation. Then I became a director. And then, what, 10 years ago, something like that, a little bit more, I put an headset in my head, and I discovered what the immersive world is,

and I found it so magic, so I decided to go on this media. Nice. So I always like to hear a bit of what design disciplines or education people are bringing in. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more around your background and your journey into virtual reality. As I say, I have several lives. I began to, I'm at a hot school and then I worked on the interior architecture. but I always wanted to, even in this early stage of my career, I always wanted to tell stories. I love telling stories. Even if it's completely dreamlike or contemplative or something that always trying to find something unexpected. And then I started to work in the video games. It was mostly to try different media with interaction, and it was very interesting at that time.

And then with animation, what I like was to be able to create some dreamlike or some imaginary space that can explore what we have in mind and what possibility to illustrate the picture you have in mind. transform the mental picture you have in mind and to bring them into in form and I think animation is the right right media for that yeah no I really loved your piece of yesterday maybe and I'm excited to dive into it but for people who haven't had a chance to see it yet maybe you could just describe what is yesterday maybe and what is the story that you wanted to tell so it's come from a very personal project it come from my personal experience and it I tend to explore the very first moment, the sensory space and the emotional space that are the very first moments following the death of someone you love.

And these particular moments are very strange, you know. The person is gone, but your mind doesn't fully accept it. You are unable to make sense of what is happening. and even you are unable to figure out what state of motion you are in. And in the meantime, everyday life with this obligation, like the funeral, you have to organize the funeral, you have to take care of the paperwork, you have to take care of your children, of your family, and everything, all that, become mixed up and entangled with the emotion and the memories. And in your head is a big mess. It's become some kind of a psychological maze. Everything met together. And it creates totally surreal moments. And this project is about these surreal moments. You live when you have to face this kind of tragedy.

Yeah, and so there's a quote from Abercamou poem of The Stranger. and it's summarized in the movie as mother died today or yesterday maybe. I don't know. There's sort of like this ambiguity. And I was talking to somebody and they had a completely different take as I was because they were like, why don't you know? And I was like, well, they could have died in the middle of the night. But in the piece, there's actually other characters who are also debating about it. And so I felt like I was those two Cyclops characters who were like going back and forth arguing about whether it was today or yesterday. And for my take, it was like it doesn't matter. They're dead, but there's this liminality of not knowing the facts and the details. There's going to be fuzziness, and there's a certain way of not really knowing all the answers in that moment that I think the piece is trying to get at in some ways. I choose this sentence because when I start to work on the project, when I remember what I was going through, and I think this sentence summarized perfectly,

what state of mind you are in this particular moment, because it's divided into two things. mother died. That's a fact. In this particular moment, you hold on to that fact. The death is certain. But everything else gets blurry. Was it today? Was it yesterday? Even the notion of time gets blurry. Finally, I would say the death is certain, but the perception of it is not. For me, this sentence is very, very powerful because it shows in what mess we are. You see? and talking about the two Cyclops it was very interesting because for me the whole film is I would say I wanted to keep the project as open as possible I didn't want the viewer to feel trapped in my home story so I tried to stay more open with the meaning of the different scenes and the Cyclops had the meaning for me

because that's my meaning but everyone can have... That's the way I create them. But other people can have an interpretation of the Cyclops. For me, it's like two gods that were playing with time. Because I don't want to spoil the things, but they fight over the time, you know. Maybe it's yesterday, maybe it's tomorrow. And it's very cynical. It's a cynical sense. It's like I had these feelings. When I was going through these moments, these tragic moments, that it's so cynical. Why did she have to live now and not later? And you feel that it's very unfair. And you said, oh, maybe because the gods have a strict notion of humor, you know? Yeah, well, the piece has a very dreamlike quality in a way that you're seamlessly going from one scene to the next and that there's repeating motifs and texts that are coming

in and out but just curious to hear how you conceptualized the journey that you wanted to take people on that was trying to reflect your own journey but how do you spatialize that into something that people see unfold over time i didn't want as i said earlier i didn't want the viewer to get trapped in my own inner story in my own story so i i'm i have all this picture in mind of these memories and all these things in my mind and I put them together and I try to find some kind of coherence putting them together but I just want to leave enough space for the viewer to make his own connection with the experience so I try to build these things like mental landscape more than a real real scene so everything can have a very opening

meaning for everyone. I always try to design the project as a space for personal projection but I know that everyone have we have the same reference but I wanted to keep open as much as possible for everyone. Yeah I found it really powerful just because there's different layers of symbols where things mean very specific things to you personally like Cyclops is but they also have cultural and archetypal universal meaning for some so there's a range of different types of vexing confusing beguiling symbols that you kind of get a sense of what they mean but also like the specifics are blurry or fuzzy enough where it doesn't feel like this is only your story it just feels like this is like a universal type of experience that people go through and so So, yeah, my experience of it was that I really appreciate these types of dream logic experiences.

And I knew I was going to be doing an interview with you, and I watched it, and I had a feeling. But then I was like, I don't know if I could remember what specifically happened. And so I had to actually go back and watch it again just to sort of, like, log the beat by beat because there's a bit of a seamless going from one scene to the next and not always intuitive. transitions between one context to the next because you're really taking people on this epic journey but it does feel like i'm in a dream and using the language of dream and dream logic and so i'm just curious if you could elaborate a little bit on if you were trying to create like a dream-like experience or your inspirations of what kind of journey you wanted to create i i wanted the viewer experience this inner journey but mix up with the elements of reality and also mix up with memories and some elements of emotion. So I have to mix them together. So I think it summarized perfectly what I wanted to do.

You end up the project, you watch it, and I was unable to remember exactly what... But you end up with a perception of it not very precise, but you have a feeling, you have a sensation of something. And for me, that's very important that we end up with the experience with something more non-tangible, more, I would say, more emotional and more something sensory experience. Yeah, and the piece starts with these bird omens with the crow crowing and then flying by, and then as the message comes in, then you see a teapot comes up, and you see a woman who's really grieving and then falls over, and you're filled with water, and then you pull out, and then all of a sudden you're in this, what I read is this archetypal realm of potentials of all the different types of grief that people from all times have seen,

and it just felt like it's like a cube, and each cube represents the whole non-bullying complex of all the archetypes of all the different ways that people have experienced this moment in a way that I thought was really quite beautiful, that you have this poetic abstraction of a singular specific experience, but how it's kind of pointing to this universal experience that so many people deal with loss and grief in different ways. And so you get little vignettes, and as you look around, you hear kind of little audio cues from each of those different scenes that give you a little taste of the many different ways that people experience grief and loss. Yeah, and these particular scenes with the cube, I designed it. When I designed it, I designed it thinking about how the interior of my mind would look like. And that's very interesting because for me, it's like the inner structure of some cube and every cube could represent for me thoughts or memories

as if we had blocks in our mind, in our head. And every memory, thoughts, emotions, feelings is represented by a cube and you see that from the inside. But that's the starting point. But it's still very open. That's very interesting because you, as a viewer, you interpret it differently, and I like it. I like that. Yeah, it's abstract enough. It's about a mental journey with a lot of symbols and abstractions and ways that people can project their own meaning onto this semiotic projection of what each of these different objects are signifying. But what I really appreciate in the next scene, where you go into this water scene, where you're kind of going between the canyons, but you see people with names, I get the sense, okay, this is a family of this person who has died and passed, was connected to all these different people, and they have these different relationships.

And then you get to a wall where there's like thousands of names. And so you have these different layers of closeness maybe to an individual where there's like the super close people that maybe have more of a prominent spatial podium to stand on and paint a name and stand in grief. But then there's all these other looser connections that the person had been connected to throughout their life in a way that I thought really spoke to the way that when we pass, there's people that are left behind, that are left with that grief, and that you're kind of really seeing all the people that are there that, you know, she's becoming an ancestor to, but you get to kind of see them and feel the reality, but there's still a connection there. Yeah. These things come hand-in-hand with the canyon, come hand-in-hand with the elevator scene, because it was like you are merged in some kind of world of the dead, but then reality makes you come out this mooring world.

And then it's like there's an expression in French, it's an ascenseur emotional, it's an emotional roller caster. In French, it's an elevator, an emotional elevator. So for me, it was some kind of reference to this expression. but it doesn't work in English because you say emotional roller coaster but we are in French have another expression with the elevator so but it was interesting for me to to understand that we constantly going up and down on the different level from very deep thought and and comes up with the everyday lives and then you jump again into something more intellectual and then you have those it's some kind of up and down constantly you know yeah and the next series of sequences was interesting just to see how you're jumping in between different contexts where it felt like

okay i'm driving down las vegas and then all of a sudden the signs are now converted into to reminders of the passing with the yesterday maybe, and then driving into a movie theater with people with halos, but then all of a sudden you're in a church with these weird things flying around, and then there's a crow and astronaut, but there's a guy who plays some music, but you have the hearse. So then you're kind of at the point where you're starting to get into the symbols of most people go to church to have a funeral and mourn, But what do you make of the interstitial journey into the church? Because it's a movie theater. It's like now showing. It's like now we're going to have entertainment. Instead of a movie theater, now we're inside of a kind of a religious institution. Because for me, it still illustrates perfectly what kinds of nonsense we are living at this particular moment. You can be very excited and sit at one moment and then very dumb.

you can be in a good mood and then become down the minute after but nothing makes sense and passing from you open the door you thought that you're going to be in a theater but in reality you enter a church but the goal was to illustrate this kind of nonsense the moment you just dive in that's why I wanted to create this kind of contrast You can feel the same with the graphic language. It's very colorful. It's very pop and colorful. And for me, it illustrates the contrast between the apparent serenity of this moment and the violence of what is happening. So it's the same with the door of the theater and the church. And we're introduced to the man with the crow head and the astronaut in this scene. I mean, they're kind of recurring characters from that point on.

But is there a reason why they get introduced in the church? So they're getting introduced in the church because it's something I experienced. During the funeral, there are always some people that come up like a mate from work, from the dead person, or a great aunt who doesn't really fit with the crow, with the morning crow, you know. and so they are in some kind of outsiders of the morning crow and but they don't feel very specifically sad or something like that but at the end they help as much as the other they help us with your feeling with your emotion but they don't fit with the crowd so but everyone can make his own interpretation of this character. Yeah, that makes sense. And they sort of are with you for the remainder of most of the rest of the film.

And there's a series of images in the next sequence of getting to the point of actually burying the coffin that are really quite evocative and stuck with me in terms of the juxtaposition of car driving in a desert from then a boat in the middle of the water. and then there's sort of like body parts come up and then you're cutting back and forth to these two scenes, but then you have like fire inside of the boat which is like it feels like this If I was in a boat that was on fire I would be like my life might be in danger here because the boat not going to survive But just the contrast between those two scenes and the parallels between them, I don't know what it is exactly, but it was very evocative because it created this sense of mundane reality of what I'm normally seeing, of, like, yeah, I can imagine a hearse driving down a highway in a desert, But then to imagine myself being on a boat with a coffin that's on fire has quite other contrast to that. You had mentioned that you were starting to use these contrasts,

but the editing also feels like a bit of a music video by this point, where you're more quickly editing between scenes. And so there's these snapshots and fragments that before you had a little bit more extended scenes, scenes but you're starting to pick up the rhythm and the pace of images coming more quickly and so you see these four people in robes that feel very mystical and sacred to then the mundane hearse and then this other kind of surreal so there's a procession of different types many different types of ways of getting to the point of bearing the body but there was something that just emotionally hit me and seeing like these ghosts of souls kind of flying up and just evoking this sense of sacredness at the same time. So surreality, mundaneness and sacredness all put together, but in a rapidly paced music video style, I believe some music at that point, or at least I remember kind of a rhythmic quality to it.

So yeah, that was a moment in the piece for me that really landed, that also just brought up a lot of emotion as well. the procession scenes I created the procession scenes I draft them with the idea in my mind that we all have procession scenes we usually follow the hearse but in different cultures you can carry the coffin in different cultures for instance so I choose different elements of different cultures like the boat you were talking about with the fire. It was like the Viking ceremony. But we have something in common. We follow something. We just have the same kind of procession in every culture. And for me, it was interesting to mix all this kind of procession that could become something more universal, you know. And then in every culture, every soul is going up, you know.

So it makes sense for me to mix up all this, to be able to be the most universal meaning of this kind of processing. Yeah, and when you get closer to actually burying the coffin, the two sidekicks or main protagonists are there and kind of have a breakthrough of sorts where they throw an object. When I think about it now, I think of there's so much around funerals and death, around the commercialization around it, where if we were to design a ritual to actually feel and process and grieve in a way that was a collective healing, it would be one thing, but there's so much things you have to break through in order to really get to that place of emotional vulnerability. Haida Benendetto is an experiential designer, and she wrote about how for a funeral it was around if you're able to be emotionally vulnerable enough to actually feel your emotions. And so that scene where they're kind of breaking the structures down felt like an invitation to process.

But, you know, if they're just kind of outcasts, they actually become a pretty crucial role for helping to do the final deed of burial. So they're actually, as I listen to you, like perhaps secretly connected or more related to this person than maybe you're meant to be or maybe i don't know they're representations of the liminality of people you have no idea who's going to show up and play an important role because they do end up being pretty key characters throughout the piece and so yeah just curious if you have any thoughts you you just said everything it is perfect for me I don't have anything to add you know but at the end I hope we get the feeling that for me I didn't design the experience like a manual for grieving but more to understand what we are going through for the grief to become finally possible that's for me that's the very first moment and then you can

start to grieve but you have to pass through this inner journey to be able to starting grieve yeah no i thought it's really powerful and that when you get to the actual burial then there's like this weird magical cube within a cube that then transforms into like eight or nine spheres that is a bit of a callback to the beginning where there's the cube world with all the different worlds but this is more of like artifacts of journey along the way or just maybe memories like you see like these floating lizard things that were in the church or flying around these things and so there's knife and a heart there's all these symbols of kind of grief yeah all the spheres that come up at the end for me it was a way to illustrate now that you are put in the ground your loving one what now for her what now and the idea

is that everyone has their own conception of heaven or the afterlife and maybe it's a beautiful castle with a magical flying what I don't have the name for this creature maybe it's only stairs when the dead are climbing up endlessly or maybe it's just a chair an empty chair you know the idea is that now that she's gone what now what now for her and so everybody got his own perception of the afterlife that was my intention for this uh final scenes yeah because that translates into the liquid that goes back to the beginning and so we're kind of come back to a point where we realize that we might have just gone into sort of a mental journey or maybe it's a physical journey and we're just back from another starting point and so uh yeah it it was a piece that like last year there's a piece called less than five grams

in saffron which ended up winning the second place prize and for me there's a lot of similarities i mean there's a different story that's being told but there's a visual poetry that happens i think in both of ways they're using space and animation that's my background uh in animation i like when when animation transform itself and make transition, unexpected transition. And I really enjoy this project because it shows where animation can be very, very powerful because this kind of animation, this kind of transformation and motion design help us to feel the emotion, feel something more sensitive than real action. in the beginning when you were talking about your background did you say that you were trained as an architect or interior architect yeah a long time ago yes i was an interior architect but architecture always been for me very important you know creating spaces for me from the beginning

and i still i still conceive all my projects as architecture that's the base of what i am and And I always structure, even an animation film for me is when I design, when I write, I always think about the space where am I? Because for me, the architecture and the structure of the space is so important. I spend a lot of time working in different places with the architecture, some special architecture, because for me it's like a projection of the mind and for instance when you're here in this beautiful place and you experience a VR project but you are in a way the fact that they made a very beautiful scenery of the space puts you in the mood, in a particular mood for receiving the emotion that you will have in the experience you will see, you will watch.

And so when you were thinking about this experience and putting it together, did you write a script or did you sketch it out? Did you draw it in 3D? I'm just trying to get a sense of how you took it from your imagination and started to put it down and what steps you took in order to put it together. So that's an interesting question, because at the beginning, I have no idea what I was going to do. I just had all these images and pictures, and so I put that down on the paper. As I said earlier, it's little by little emerge some kind of coherence of all of this. and so I start mostly of writing some simple sentence, maybe one or two, that try to illustrate what I had in mind and make some draw. And I have all this sheet of paper full of notes and drawing

and then I, visually, that was very interesting because at the end, it started to make sense, you know. And then I didn't write a script, to be honest. First of all, because I made the project on my own, so I didn't have to write something properly to convince a producer or to get funding help. The classical process you have to do for this kind of project because it was too intimate for me to talk with other people. maybe if I didn't find this kind of logic in my drawing in my notes I wouldn't have done the project but that was magical because setting up this project helped me finding meanings of what I was going through and that was really great that was really a giftful consequence when you were going from those sketches is did you have another intermediate space where you make an architectural blueprint of what it might look like

Or did you just design it in a 3D program? I designed it directly in 3D because I was able to do it. And I like to rapidly have a quick view of what it's going to be. so most of the time I use a 3D program to design everything. But it's very interesting because you have a very quick peek of what it's going to be and that's very encouraging and I like it because you quickly design spaces with a few elements and you find that you can quickly understand if it's working or not. What's your 3D program that you're using? I find several, I don't know, Blender or 3DS Max because I'm very old and it's very old. Nobody uses it anymore now, this kind of program, but 3DS Max mostly.

And then I moved to Unity. I made the entire project with Unity, which I didn't master it at all. so I watch a lot of tutorials on YouTube. And I didn't put these things on the closing title, but I really want to thank all these people who spend a lot of time, a lot of their time to create tutorials that really help us in everyday life. I mean, this is a truly gift they make to us. Yeah, and you said that working on this project was helping to process some of the grief and emotions. And I'm wondering, you know, my own experience of creating projects around grieving that can be a lot of technical, mental processes. But at some point, you can get it to a point where you've finished or got to a point where you can actually fully receive it in your heart and really feel all the emotions are coming up.

So I'm just curious what that process was like, if it was kind of going back and forth, or if it was kind of an emotional cathartic process in between, or if you had to get it to a certain point before you could fully receive it. Unfortunately, when you spend so much time on the project, you don't see the project anymore. You are unable to judge what you just have made. But I would say that creating this project took me a long time because I was on my own. but to be honest it keeps me busy from being too much sad you know it was also some kind of therapy for me to do this uh this project yeah it's hard to watch your own project with fresh eyes i think is the challenge as you get so used to it but you have your own level of getting it to the point where you wanted to get it but you may not be able to fully receive it like you're watching it for the first time? Yeah. I think I have to watch my project in five years or something like that.

Maybe I will find something new that I didn't see. Maybe I create in a conscious way, you know. I will be very happy to watch the movie again when all the rush will be done. But for now, what I'd like to do is to collect the feedback of the other people because it's very interesting for me. And I sense that I touch something because the feedback is so different and so interesting for me because some people find different meaning of the different elements of the project. And that's very great because that's what I wanted to do. Yeah, and I happened to run into Paul Bouchard from Diversion and actually got a build from Diversion of your piece ahead of the festival so I could check it out. And he was saying that there's a number of different pieces, including R2, that Diversion is going to be having these exhibitions within France

to be able to have these cinemas and movie theaters. And so I'm just curious to hear about anything you can share in terms of the potential public exhibitions in French theaters with yesterday maybe. Yes, I would be very glad to be part of it. I don't know if it will be in the program. I don't know. He confirms that? Well, he said there are two. There's other things that they're going to be doing. I know the version is going to be helping to distribute your piece, or at least the point of contact. And so do you have any plans you can share about what's next for yesterday, maybe? For now, several festivals. I'll be next week at Viborg. I need to say, I don't know. I've never been, but I've heard it's like an animation festival, right? Yes, I'll be there with the project, Kaohsiung. So for me, it's the festival time, you know. And after, I would love to share with the system in the theater. I would really love it because I think it's a smart move,

this kind of process of opening VR and 360 video to a larger audience when you have the headset, but you share the sounds. And that's very interesting. I think it's... Did you experience it? Because I experienced once this principle of having a headset in the theater and sharing the sun. So the one time that I did have a shared viewing experience in a movie theater was in an Egyptian theater back in Sundance 2016. All the audio was coming locally. So I don't believe they were sharing the audio. but I think that would have made a big... Well, if you have a good mix audio-wise that you can really take advantage of it. Sharing the audio is very interesting because we connect with something social. That's something that we tend to lose when we put an headset.

We are alone in the headset. But with this installation, it tends to regain some social experience. some crowd we share something in common and that's I think it's quite interesting yeah I think your piece has worked well there can you speak a little bit about the sound design and music that you have actually I work with my son Niels Banekut who is a sound designer and a music composer and I was really great because since he was involved with the subject obviously because the loss of his mother It felt natural to me to ask him to take part of the project. He said yes. That was very interesting to work together and finding something. We choose the sound carefully. We researched. We made some research together. And there was some kind of family work and something I never experienced before.

But that was great because we were touched by the subject together. So we walk in the same direction. It's a very touchy experience. Yeah, it sounds like a really beautiful collaboration, for sure. And finally, what do you think the ultimate potential of immersive storytelling might be and what it might be able to enable? That's a good question. I don't know. For me, it's creating, continue to creating, I would say, spaces that was never explored before. That's my goal with the VR experience. But when I see all the different ways to, for instance, the Gaussian Splatting and all the LBE, location-based entertainment, So there are so many possibilities. I'm quite confident about the future of immersive writing and immersive experience.

Because I think it's going to be great. The device is going to be better. And everything is going to be, I think, pretty confident for the future. Nice, and is there anything else that's left and said that you'd like to say to the immersive community? Any final thoughts? I would say that stay as you are right now because it's a very friendly community and we love to share and it's a passionate community and I want to stay as you are right now because it's very warm to meet each other every time and I like it. It's creative, it's wonderful. For now, it's like a family and I would love that it stays as it is. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me here on the podcast today and I really enjoyed yesterday maybe in terms of the story that's being told. I felt it was really emotionally moving

in a way that I felt like the use of the technology to take me on this dreamlike journey in a way that left a lot open for me to kind of project myself into the experience. And I kind of left with this really moving experience. And so I really quite enjoyed it. And, yeah, thanks so much for joining me here on the podcast to help share a little bit more about your process and about some of your own meanings that you have. And, you know, it's open enough for people to watch and have their own connection to it. And I think it's a great example of that kind of spatial journey that allows people enough openness to kind of project themselves into. So, yeah, thanks again for joining me here on the podcast to help break it all down. Thank you, Ken. Thank you so much for taking time to ask me a question. It was lovely. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to the Voices of VR podcast. And I just want to say that I'm really trying to live into the transformation economy, meaning I want to give away all this information for free, make it public accessible for not only you but the entire community. And if you find value in that, then please do consider supporting me on Patreon.

You know, I'm on this journey of trying to reach my 1,000 true fans. And if I have just $5 a month from that $1,000, I'll be in a much more solid and stable financial position. So really need your help to be able to get to that point. So if you enjoy what I'm doing here at the Voices of VR podcast, then please do consider supporting me at patreon.com slash Voices of VR. Thanks for listening. Thank you.