成功が罠になるとき：CEOコーチ Andrea Petrone が語る「圧力下のリーダーシップ」

Let's go. You're listening to Making Data Simple, where we make the world of data effortless, relevant, and yes, even fun. Hey podcast listener, I'm Martin here. Thank you for listening as usual. Today we're going to talk about leadership, which is always a keen interest of mine. I want to give a little lead in to the gentleman that we have here with us today. And that is what separates leaders who continue to grow from those that plateau, if you will. Andrea, who's here, Andrea Petrone, he talks about where highly successful leaders are, where they can stall. And essentially, the identity that helped them reach the top can also become the thing that holds them back. And after more than two decades of coaching over 250 CEOs and senior executives at organizations, including Shell, Unilever, PwC, on and on. Andrea has discovered that leadership rarely breaks because executives don't know what to do.

It breaks because pressure pulls them away from themselves, which I think is super interesting. And he has playbooks, you name it. Thank you so much for being here. Andrea Petrone, thank you. Appreciate you. If you don't mind, I'd like you to give a quick intro of yourself, and then we'll jump in. Sure, well, thank you so much, Al, first of all, for inviting me and looking forward to this conversation. A brief introduction for me. I'm a performance coach and advisor, primarily to CEOs and senior leadership team. That's been always my cap of tea, if you like. That's essentially been my experience. Why I'm so connected and interested to that specific audience is just because I was a CEO at 35 years old when I was in corporate. I went through most of the challenges that now I see on the other side of the fence. And for many years, I worked closely to CEOs, first in a management consulting capacity, and then when I created my own practice, my own business, that was seven years ago.

And I would say along the way, I learned so many things about what does it mean leading at the top. Again, from my personal experience, but also from coaching, interviewing on my pod called The World Class Leader Show. So some of the best CEOs out there. And so less, you know, as a journalist, but more as an anthropologist, more as a traditional coach, I got very interested to what does it mean leading at the top. So that's essentially my story in a very, you know, short message for you. And again, as you said, there is a new book coming up. So that's essentially I have captured all my lessons, experience, and introducing a framework to help CEOs and broadly senior leaders to lead under pressure. And that is the playbook for CEOs to lead under pressure, correct? Correct. Yes, yes. Very good. So welcome. I know you have a history of engineering, consulting, CEO, advisor, now your keynote speaker, author, performance coach, consultant. So let's start here. Let's start with you decided to write this book. You become a coach. What brings you here? Why did you have to head in that direction? Why not become the next CEO?

You said you already were a CEO, right? Why pause and learn about CEOs and try to advise and teach, coach other CEOs? Well, first of all, you should really have a conversation with my wife because she has been asking me that question many, many times. No, seriously, I think, as I said, I have a very deep interest for leadership, but not the traditional way of thinking leadership at all levels. I'm interested in what is the more introspective view about leadership. what really means leadership for people? What does it mean leading? And that got me, you know, again, that drove that interest in getting more into their life, getting more into their way of thinking more than their way of operating. So I'm interested in the thinking part of being a CEO. I'm thinking to see, okay, how a CEO really thinks about choices? How do they think about making decisions? How do they think about trade-off? How do they think about, you know, be authentic and transparent when internally they have this, you know, conflict or fight in terms of what they can share, what they cannot?

So I think it's on the back of my personal interest first. But second, as I said, you know, I was a CEO myself. And I would say my first experience CEO was not successful. You know, I led with a very specific way of operating. And that, you know, got me in trouble. And there is, you know, all the conversation about identity, which I'm sure we will touch on in this conversation. that got me very, again, attracted to the topic of the connection between who we are, the identity, and who we are as a leader and how we lead. And finally, in that process of discovering myself that I went through when everything actually started to fail after a very incredible fast track career at the beginning, I started to get connected to coaching for the first time until that time. I was around the age of 37. And I felt like everything I was, I felt invincible. So everything I touched turned into gold. That's how I perceived myself. Now, that moment of realization that actually that was not true, that something was not working as it was supposed to work,

then let me, you know, consider, think, and have a much more introspective view about myself. And then when I started to hire the first coach in my life, and that gave me not only an interest about coaching, but in what could be the incredible impact and value you can take when you start sharing what you're really dealing with other people. Anyway, so a long way of saying is interest to the CEO because I was one of them. Second is given what I went through, what's the identity, the correlation with identity with leadership at the most powerful way. And then, again, closing to coaching, get closing to coaching was important to me. Could you say a little bit more about your CEO experience? When did you first become CEO? What kind of business was it? and just a few more details kind of shape the thoughts of the... Yeah, so it's an interesting experience because it was a joint venture, a social sort of work, meaning I was leading a joint venture. So when I worked for a company, I was already one of the major directors.

I was still young. I came from abroad. So I had this, you know, baggage of international experience and that was an Italian company. So they were actually looking, they were incredible in hyper growth and they were looking for much more senior, more professional, coming and bringing that level of experience for the new level of growth that the company was dealing with. And so during that moment of growth, they were acquiring a number of companies. So I've been selected to be the CEO of a new joint venture. And that experience was great because it was a little bit smaller company, so hundreds instead of thousands, and it gave me the opportunity to some extent to try, you know, to experiment being CEO for the first time. And what I noticed, and I don't know how much we want to go there But what I started to notice early is I came with, as I said in the book, with a playbook I came with my orientation to leadership I came with my orientation to what does it mean leading And that was on the back of education, values, previous mentors Previous experience rather than CEOs that I had And I thought that leadership was one way

That was a way to lead an organization Very quickly I just realized that that playbook was not working. And it took me a really long time to understand that I was driven in that role with a very clear identity that what I call in the book is an achieved identity that was a result of a number of experience I had until that time. What I realized, I needed to create a different identity to lead in a very different context that I used to lead before. All right, I got it. Hey, thank you. That helps set up. But to your point, are all CEOs created equal? I mean, some CEOs are like CEOs of 20 people teams, perhaps, and others are CEOs of like IBM when you're talking 300,000 people. We're using CEO quite liberally as a term, but it could be very different, right? It's very different. Now, that doesn't mean that the pressure that they're dealing with and the feeling is necessarily different. The scale of the role and the responsibility is clearly different.

The scale of the issues they're dealing with is completely different. If you bring a CEO of even 5,000 employees together with a CEO of 50 employees, they will really struggle to work with each other and even to talk with each other because they're just talking two different languages to some extent, right? So the scale is different. The size is different. The challenges are different. But the pressure that gets generated by the role most of the time is similar. And I tell you why. Because the pressure is very seldom generated as an external factor. The pressure is our way of reacting to something. So it's internal. So leading with the pressure for ourselves, it really depends how we are used to it, is how we are clear about what we're leading, how we're clear who we are. So to some extent, I've seen, and I have a number of examples in the book, CEOs of large, large companies, including fortune companies, that from my interpretation, they really struggled to understand how the context was shifting for them, and they were still using the same playbook over time, thinking that was working, and actually they were failing, but they did not realize it.

So let's start very simple, because I think this needs to be put out there. In your mind, what defines a leader? How do you define, what's the definition of a leader? So there are multiple ways of explaining what leadership means. So I don't think there is nothing right or wrong. So it's an interpretation of how we experience that. In my experience, what a leader is, is somebody that is able to intervene and going beyond what is predictable in the organization. It's all about predictability. So the leader to me is somebody that is able to recognize what's the current trajectory of their own business, and they are stepping beyond that because they are much more ambitious, they have a compelling future to create it, and so they go beyond what is the current obstacles and trends they're dealing with. That, to me, is a slightly different definition of what you probably see in leadership books. When you say leadership is being a role model, good leader is doing the right thing. It's all right. That's why I said there's nothing right or wrong. But to me, leadership is going to a different level.

That's what I think a leader is compared to many other people. They are good managers. They can manage the current trajectory, but they're not able to intervene beyond that trajectory. Something that your team said that I thought was interesting, so I'll just ask it this way. because it made me think. And that is, tell us why leadership isn't measured by the decisions you make, but by how people watch you make those decisions under pressure. Yeah. And that, to me, is a critical notion that is worth discussing. Look, I think we all potentially agree to the fact that when the waters are calm, we all show up in the best possible way, as people, as individuals, potentially as well as the leaders. Same for culture. I mean, it's easy to deal with everything that goes well. The challenge for me is when pressure hits, so when the context shifts, what version of ourselves as a leader show up in the system? And that is a test. That is a leadership test. It's not a pressure test. It's a leadership test. Are we able to stay focused on and clear to the identity that we have?

Are we able to stay closer to the future we want to build despite all the challenges and the concern that we see despite all the forces they are attacking us AI included so a good definition of leadership inside of the frame I gave you is the ability to stay true to themselves true to their compass they have in their mind to operate it, and not let whatever circumstances happen to prevail in the way how they show up. Otherwise, they're going to essentially sacrifice who they are. They're going to take shortcuts, trade-offs, and make a decision they're not anymore aligned with who they really are. Is that to say, do you believe that people look at leadership and they really assess or measure your success as a leader on how you make those decisions under pressure, more so than the decisions even themselves? I don't think there is a single way to measure what leadership, if leadership is successful. So making decisions, I don't think is a metric.

So making decisions is a basic, is a foundation for whoever is leading at the top. So it's normal making decisions. Then we can argue how people make decisions, right? I think the challenge I see is making decisions when there are so many things at stake, that's the complexity for leaders. Because, again, if you're losing your own compass, the decision you're going to make, they're going to be most likely driven by whatever is convenient to you, rather than whatever is right based on what you stand for as a leader. So it might be a nuance, but to me it's a huge difference because what I see every day in organizations is whenever the situation gets difficult, only the best CEOs, they are able to stand powerfully in front of them and not get bogged down by the risk of the decision. They don't get bogged down by the risk of how people perceive them. So my question is Are CEOs, all the CEOs Able to stay true to themselves No matter what is in front of them at any given time

Because that is to me Is a good proof of great leadership Just in summary, maybe you've already kind of said this But what differentiates a CEO From others? What's the fundamental difference? Well, besides the role, clearly That's not clearly what you're putting That's obvious, yeah Which is obvious So the CEO, what is really different is the ability to lead from their own identity, to be clear who they are, to be clear what they stand for, to have a very consistent message that is not, the people that are not interpreted, so it's not, it's unmistakable, let's put it in that way, and then they operate as a role model consistent with the message of identity, which essentially, in summary, is what I presented into the book. Is that sort of a trulla, is an alignment to make sure they don't really struggle whenever the context shifted for them. That, to me, is my version of a great CEO. So, now, we can extend and expand on it. We can say that the great CEOs are people that are the best orchestrator.

Yes, that is the thing. We can say the best CEOs are those people that have a compelling future in front of them. Yes. The best CEOs are people that are great on leading people. Yes. But that, to me, is not necessarily something that distinguishes a great CEOs from a good CEO. The great CEOs, actually, they really show up when the conditions are difficult, and they do it in a very consistent way. That's my own interpretation of why he's a great CEO right now in the market. Now, I would probably ask you how many CEOs you see there from what you read, from what you experience, actually, they belong to that category I just described. I see most of them as they have a good future. They're potentially good leaders. They are able to drive results. But when things are difficult, how do they show up? Is the same or is something different? Look, I mean, that was kind of my, I don't know if it's a criticism, but I'm glad you said that because I kind of look at this and we're talking a lot about CEOs and they're great leaders, great, great leaders that aren't CEOs. Maybe they don't even want to be CEOs. Because many of the CEOs that I know of,

I don't know if I put them in the great category. I think there are some great CEOs and, yeah, they have a lot of pressure and maybe what defines them is the pressure. I often joke with my kids that a lot of times, yeah, you're paid for pressure, you know, when they're stressing about something. I don't know if you agree with that or not. But, I mean, I think there's a lot of poor CEOs out there as well, is there not? I mean, that would be the fun of the study of CEOs for me. Yeah, all CEOs are not created equal in my opinion. No, they're not. They're not. And unfortunately, in the last few years, we have a number, many, many examples of CEOs that demonstrated they are not probably good enough for the role that they have and responsibility they have. Now, look, it's such a broad category. So, right? So, small, mid-company, large companies, different industries, different territories. So it's very difficult, and I think we should be very mindful of not making generalization when it comes to CEOs, because otherwise, you know, it's difficult having this conversation. But I can say from my experience, there is, so let's look from an opportunity.

There is such a great opportunity for CEOs to step up their game, to really show up in a very different way. Because, again, I don't know, if you are a CEO, and I was one of them, I think the question that I had for myself was, am I really leaving a legacy here? Am I really leaving something meaningful and powerful that can be remembered? Or am I just playing a number game? Or am I just playing a game that is safe enough? It's going to lead me to the next job. Maybe I'm going to get an even higher salary. And at some point I can retire and do consulting or I can write a book or I can do charity. What's the point? What's the point? These people have the opportunity to make an incredible impact to the entire society. So I honestly, sometimes I get frustrated when I see CEOs. They don't see the possibility for themselves. So is that the role of CEOs? Is just playing safe and playing the incremental game or playing an impactful game? That's the question I think that is worth asking. Look, obviously, I'm going to side on the impactful game. I mean, that's why they should be there and they should have a legacy,

most notably to better the generation that comes after them. But I have to ask, I'm glad you said that as well, because the one thing that comes to mind, and the question I guess is, and maybe it's rhetorical, is there a difference between a CEO of a public company versus a private company? Because when you're talking public, I have to say, and I'm not giving any excuses, maybe a harder game because then you're up against the shareholders, you're up against next quarter versus the next 10 years, and so you have to make compromises that I don't know you would always make if it was private, by example. I mean, that's the pressure. It can take your soul when you know you need five or ten years to do X, Y, or Z. I mean, what's your response to that? I've been fortunate enough to coach CEOs in the public and in a private company. And when it comes to private, in a different type of ownership. So from private activity to family-owned businesses. I don't see that difference. Not much. Really?

No, not much. So the pressure, again, because it's an internal condition that we have, it doesn't really matter whether the pressure comes from your interpretation or your perception of something that happens with the government or happens with the private equity. Actually, I can tell you, with the government, so with the public company, is it just a different type of shareholders? They might give you a different level of pressure in the way how they ask for something, right? Look, private equity world is incredible. It's awful to some extent. The level of pressure the CEOs are dealing with, and there are changes that are happening all the time. So as soon as it's sold to a private equity, now they're ready in a matter of three, six months. They're ready to start building the next sales process to the next ownership. And that gets them distracted by leading the company and growing the company. So I don't see the level of difference. The stakeholders are different, and the way how they project pressure as well as project some sort of request for confidence is different.

But it comes to one single point, Al, which is something they experience. I think we should stop having this thought or this myth that CEOs are very confident. They are not. CEOs are as confident as everybody else. Now, they have responsibility, they have experience, but it doesn't make them more confident than others. So when you've started to feel like the pressure is hitting, the expectations are higher, and you have less time to deliver those expectations, I can guarantee everybody will lose their confidence because you're going to start, you know, second-guessing everything that you're making, you're deciding about it. Look, I get that. I guess I just got to believe it's very, very different. And the pressure, you know, the pressure's always there. I think across public, private, it doesn't matter. However, I do think it's different. Like you've had, like I could name like companies that either have never generated positive income or were in existence for some time before they did,

like Uber, Amazon, Tesla, Palantir, OpenAI. I think that challenge, all I'm saying is that challenge seems different than somebody that is in the public market, is the community or the investors are counting on dividends. There's different challenges for each. It's different. It's definitely different. I don't disagree with you. But the question I have So if you're a CEO of a public company It's less about dividends It's less about return investment To some extent, and it depends what company we're talking about That's true But it's all about public money So I have a CEO that I work with That his mantra, his message, his identity is We are here for the society So every penny that we save Is a penny that can be used By other institutions To make the society better So I think, again, it's more about What's your identity What you want to be remembered for What you want to lead people in What's your message, which is, again, in the book What you stand for You stand for sustainability

You stand for making impact On the next 20, 30 years It doesn't matter what you stand for As long as you know what you stand for So when then you project Your work with the shareholders in your company People are clear what you stand for Now, I would say for many CEOs that if you ask them questions what you stand for as a leader they're going to give you a very fluffy answer they're going to tell you well I stand for having you know creating a good organization leave things better than I I got when I inherited that's not what you stand for that's just a corporate message you know so is this essentially when you're coaching CEOs is that one of the first items you start with what do you stand for most of the time most of the time we start really with identity now you might probably start laughing about it but as you might potentially expect Al, you cannot really do this work properly if CEOs, they are not aware about how they're leading in the current moment. So there are, I would

say to simplify, there are two clusters, two categories of people I normally coach. Those people, they are very much aware about something is broken, the past identity is not supporting in what they're currently dealing with. Sometimes they're at the beginning of the new challenge, so it's a little easier because they need to confront the reality of a new context in that moment. And sometimes they just have an attitude for, you know, challenge themselves and see, am I doing the right thing? Am I leading? Am I clear? So with some CEOs it an easy kind of a work because they ready to have the in introspective conversation at the beginning With others they don have the awareness So then normally what happens is they going to redirect the work straight into their leadership team, which is okay, which is okay, but it's like not taking responsibility for themselves in terms of how they're showing up as a leader. So it's a little bit of circling back at some point when they started to realize through feedback, through the work in coaching, through the work with leadership, oh wait a second it's about me

actually I think it's about me maybe I'm not clear enough maybe people they don't know what I stand for or maybe my message gets every single time it's interpreted it's them that was the first the beginning of that and then normally it turns into actually I think it's me and then the job started so it's just a little bit delayed based on the level of awareness they have how many narcissists do you meet though that are CEOs I mean seriously there's got to be a few There are There are many narcissists Now the question is How many of them Are coachable? Now as you might suspect 90% of them They're not coachable They're not asking for support So I'm fortunate enough The people that I work with They are normally not narcissists Or their level of narcissism Is quite low So it's good ground For working together However, the market tells us something different The market right now tells us the level of narcissists And egocentric leaders

Is still very high Not only in corporate America, by the way Because I know that becomes more like You know, a stereotype It's everywhere And by the way Neuroscience gives us a very straight Especially for men Very straight reason for that Meaning the level of testosterone in men At the top is way harder than anybody else so there is a scientific reason so there is also kind of a scientific reason why this is happening it's not justification by the way if you're adding the two things together a cocktail of the testosterone the status and the title that doesn't help them to be less egocentric and narcissistic I got so many different questions for you like I told you at the beginning of this podcast before we started recording I want to keep it light kind of like we were at a bar so let me ask you a few questions there you've talked to hundreds of CEOs What is something that you believed about leadership maybe 10 years ago, and you just don't believe anymore? You've learned and you've moved past it. Yeah, my own belief, you mean, not their belief.

Yes. Mine. Yes. Well, for me, it's an easy answer. When I stepped into this year at all, and that was now 15 years ago, so it's a little bit beyond the timeframe that you asked for, I had a very clear definition of leadership. Any words, you have to direct people, you have to command people, you have to control people. That's what a great leader does, is being able to own it, okay? One. Second is, just say what is needed, otherwise keep it for yourself. So, not being very transparent. And third, never need failure, okay? So, whenever you mess something up, don't take responsibility. Maybe, you know, blame the market, blame others. Because honestly, and if you listened to me maybe 15 years ago, you would have probably thought, no, Andrea, that's not great leadership. How come maybe you are at the top in doing that? That was my thinking. And I can say openly, that was my interpretation of leadership at the top.

Now I'm all on the other spectrum of the same range. Now for me, it's all about transparency, first of all. If I see a CEO that does not lead with transparency, to me, there's no future for that CEO. Number two is be authentic and vulnerable at the same time. And that is the biggest ask for CEOs because some of them, they get it intellectually, but they're not able to do it. But they get it, which is good. I think that is a good upgrade in terms of how people think and are at the moment. And finally, it's all about empowering. I see the CEO and leadership being really an orchestrator of leaders. I truly believe to the world being an orchestrator. That's why I think the best leaders I interview on the pod, the people I work with, the first question they have, the first real question they have is, how can I build a leadership team that's so strong and better than who I am so I can rely on them for all the big decisions I have? And some of them, believe me, they have that in mind all the time.

Every single day thinking, do I have the right leader here and there? Is the right diversity for my team? Do they really challenge me? And if they are not challenging me, something is missing for me. It's all about the leadership team. And I get it. That is your first audience as a COA. It's not the entire organization. That is your first group of leaders that you need to deal with. So orchestrator, empowerment, giving people the ability to own the results. And now you will be always on the driver's seat on everything that happens, which, again, is a default when the pressure hits. Another typical reaction of people is that. But I think those listening will probably say, hey, that's probably the right answer. That's the answer I want it to be. But the question is, and I presume there is data that shows success from the attributes of the leaders you just described, the latter part. And I presume you've done some of that data to say, look, it's not just what I think. It's what I know, what I've seen, and where it correlates to results. Yeah. So, to me, when it comes to data, rather than data, because data could be based on like research, analysis,

and whatever report research that we can read, which gives us some sort of now clear indication. There are a number of studies, primarily from companies like the same PwC, Spencer Stewart. They have now been able to track the ability for CEOs to get results when they show up in a different way. So data, numbers, research, they are validating that sort of leadership. But the other thing is way more practical. The practical element is, is the company producing results or not? Is the company producing performance? My personal experience, but that's me because I can only talk from my experience, I can say that level of leadership drives a completely different performance in organizations. Also, and I put also in the book, there are some examples of leaders they are probably now belong to the category, to that sort of persona that I just described. They've demonstrated through numbers how that leadership make a difference. I mean, Satya Nadella, in my opinion, is a great example of a leadership that, to me,

meets most of these criteria attributes has demonstrated the power and the results that Microsoft has created. And there are a number of examples of people like Nadella, you know, Infranoi. There are numbers of people that belong to that category, and they have demonstrated to performance. The book was fantastic. He talks a lot about empathy, having empathy. I thought that was great. So when you meet a really impressive CEO, or a leader for that matter, what's the first thing you notice about them? What's the first tell sign that you're like, oh, this guy's a good leader? I haven't even talked to him yet, but I can tell. This person, this girl, this guy, this gal, whatever, great leader. I know it. What's the first tell? It depends on the context where you meet these people, first of all, right? Because when you meet in a networking drink or dinner or maybe in a call, it's different than when you see in the work, in the doing, right? However, to me, one of the things that I'm always interested to see in CEOs at the beginning is

what's their level of ambitions and how clear they are about the ambition for themselves, first of all. And that, again, to me, is a very specific attribute. They tell me these people, they are people, they are visionary. They can see something that other people don't see. One. Second, connected to the future, to the clarity, is the level of full understanding of what are one or two priorities that will make a difference. When I hear CEOs be so much clearer in terms of what is needed in order to get there, to me, it's a great sign. Because they be mindful and thoughtful in terms of what is required. They don't get distracted by multiple priorities. That, to me, is an important attribute. The third one, which is something I can do at the beginning of a conversation, I can see how they talk. And when I say that, I'm always interested in the language they use. Because whenever I hear CEOs or leaders, to that matter, they speak in corporate jargons, they're speaking, you know, in a fluffy way.

that's not clear what they're saying, they're using words to mask something else, to me, there's such a strong red flag that something there is not great. I cannot see yet in action, so that's coming later, but it's important too. But I would say these three things to me, they're always a very good indication in terms of what kind of a leader is in front of me. And I would not deny that the level of positivity, enthusiasm, energy they're bringing in a conversation matters because people, as we know, we are mirrors as human beings. If we see somebody that does not engage me enough in a conversation at any level, I have a suspicion I will not be able to engage their own people as well. That totally resonates with me. It seems like when you're around somebody, whether it's a leader or not, we do tend to be mirrors. All of a sudden I catch myself doing something that they do, and I'm like, what am I doing? That's not me. So I totally get that. But speaking of, what is something great leaders do that doesn't even look like leadership?

But now you can recognize it. But great leaders do this, and it's just nobody even really sees it. It goes under the covers. Nobody acknowledges it, but it's an indication of great leadership. Listening. First is listening, the ability to listen. Now, based on the conversation that we just had, how difficult it is for a narcissist to listen to others, right? so that is already a separation the ability to listen with intention not listen really to reply or to do the voice over to talk over others and say yo thank you for your contribution but we're going to go in this direction anyway the ability to listen and to generate something only through the listening be curious so curiosity and listening to me is an important component and the third one which I think is connected is the ability to create a very safe space for people to talk, which is connected to the listening. Again, that is a big thing right now in corporate. It has been always the case, but I can tell you, and again, pressure has implications.

Because in moment of pressure, if you're not able to protect the ability for people to speak up openly and transparently, how can you make sure that the things that are in people's mind come to surface? And most importantly, to generate new ideas, to generate new ways of dealing with the pressure of the expectation that people have. Amy Edmondson who I don't know whether you are familiar with so is an important researcher you know in MIT sorry Harvard she's an endorse of my book she essentially built all notion about psychological safety and that's most of the people that got it wrong unfortunately started to interpret it as a psychological safety it's only a moment for people to open up and to vent out to say what is really in their mind or even take responsibility the interpretation is different the real psychological safety is creating a condition for people to speak up and share the best ideas they can have without the fear of repercussion Now the great CEOs allowing that to happen The others, they don't.

Simply, they don't. I hear what you're saying. Very good information. Look, so here's the next one. And I've got to believe this happens to you often. Do you ever meet with a CEO and think, this person has absolutely no idea what they're doing? Yet, everyone else thinks they're brilliant at the time. And you're thinking, they're clueless. And if so, what's the cause for that? Yeah, I met a couple. And I met in an interesting condition, both of them. They were a transition CEO, meaning they replaced another CEO that was working with. And they replaced it because it was a part of, you know, the satisfaction. Whatever was the reason, there was a satisfaction. What I experienced is they started to do two things. and that to me is also there are both indications that they are not clear about who they are, what they want to do. One, they turn into a very operational CEO and there are two types of operational CEOs. Those CEOs, they are deliberately getting into operation because it's needed.

They're experienced, maybe it's a turnaround, maybe it's a crisis, maybe it's a fast grow and they need to intervene themselves. But also there is another type of operational CEOs and these are the CEOs, they They step into operations because they don't know what to do on strategy. So it's easier and much more convenient to deal with the day-to-day firefighting because that's the comfort zone. It normally happens with people that have an operational background. So that, to me, is one component. The other red flag to me is they get into tactics. They get into a very tactical conversation, and you start to say, okay, but what is the through line behind that? what is their, what really is their identity, who they are. So I see some of them. But their ability to recognize this, that's not obvious. Are they coachable? Were you able to coach them back to success or no? I think they can be. Yes, they can. And I had a good experience with one of them. The other was not coachable. But because they were open and transparent. Now, normally there is a burning platform, which I think is good.

Something has happened. it could be one major event, meeting session, operational crisis, whatever that made them think differently about themselves oh, okay, now I think it's better if I get different advice or I get somebody else to be my sounding board because I'm in trouble so sometimes the burning platform is useful because it's a moment of truth for them and maybe start realizing, okay, I thought it was not working but I keep pushing, now I can see that it's not working What should I do about it? But normally because they get more into the survival mode. So they get into survival. So when people get into survival, there are two ways to react. One is leave. The second is, you know what, I'm going to push. I'm going to fight here. So let's get some advice. And that will happen to me too. What was the most common thing that COs are lying to themselves about when they're talking to themselves? Well, I know everything. So what they like Is I know everything

I know exactly what I have to do They don't They simply don't So that to me is the biggest one Do you think they start believing What they're preaching or something All of a sudden Because they got to They've got to have that confidence We talked about So to have the confidence You start believing Kind of what you're selling So much so that You're willing to Go down with the ship When it's not the right path And you can't change Well it's a protective mechanism It's a protective mechanism So when you start to deal with the reality is, I don't know how to do X, Y, Z, but I'm going to project confidence. I'm going to project a different image of myself, so I'm not going to lose my audience, whatever audience is about it. That is a lie. That is a lie. The other lie is, inside of the same frame is, I'm going to put a mask here. I'm going to put a mask so people will never really see what is behind that mask. so they're lying about themselves because they don't want to recognize and they don't want to appear as true authentic leaders,

which is exactly the opposite impact they can generate if they do because people, they want to work only with authentic leaders. So these, to me, are the major lies. So I know everything. I don't need to be myself. That's not what the organization wants from me. And I know what decisions to make. So speaking of, you've written a lot about reinvention. But how do you know when it's actually time to reinvent yourself versus, hey, you've already got the recipe. Hell, you're the CEO. You've gotten here for a reason. How do you know when to make that pivot? Kind of as an extension of what we just discussed, it's, you know, you're trying to convince an organization that this is the path. You know, you're the captain of the ship. When do you know it? Hey, it's not working. Time to pivot. How do you even go about doing that? Yeah. First of all, the numbers, they don't help because the numbers is a sort of lagging indicator. You see the number of your performance always after. So you might not be already in a good shape, but the numbers don't necessarily tell you that. So that, for example, is something that does not necessarily help CEOs to recognize that they need some sort of invention right now, right?

Because they might not see for the next six months. So that is not helping them. So what really helps, which, again, is one of the major constraints of leading at the top, is a real feedback, which really has to be very authentic and genuine. And the challenge, which I would say for most CEOs is they don't get any feedback because it's most people that want to please the CEO. Let's face it. Okay. Or the feedback they get, it's driven by personal agendas, which, again, is not helpful at all as a leader. However, in the book I write a lot about what could be some early Signs for the CEOs to start considering Hold on a second, maybe there is A moment to pause and rethink About myself, is normally My experience, Ali, is when you start to See that your message doesn't land anymore People don't get it They start asking questions like Sorry, I'm not clear about this What are you essentially saying? Why you said X and then You did Y? Why you said X And, you know, a week ago and now you say, why? Can you please help me to understand that?

So people are starting to get really confused. Second, you start to see people that are not executing anymore because that confusion doesn't drive clarity enough for people to take ownership of something. So there are some signs there. And essentially, you're losing your audience most of the time. And even with the board, if you have a board, that's an interesting relationship that gets created. now again the board is not necessarily a body of people that tell you straight away what is not working sometimes again they're waiting a little bit too long because they are with you they are supposed to help you and support you so they're giving you a chance and opportunity they might share their perspective but they don't want to intervene too much because that's not what their role is so long story short I think there are very few data tangible points for CEOs to get the decision on their own. So there are two ways. One is clearly if you have a coach, somebody that can see you from an external perspective without an agenda,

thick. Great. So that's why I think people like me exist because there is a role to play in that spirit. But the second thing is your level of awareness should be good enough for you to spot what is not working without waiting for somebody to give you feedback or the numbers tell you the right story because the numbers, they don't tell you the right story straight away. I got to start wrapping up here, but that's why I have this podcast. Let's talk to people like you. You've had a well thought out answer for almost everything I've asked. I got one more question that I was thinking about. So in your book, you referenced Ron Johnson in your book. Like, I'd say three or four podcasts ago, I had him on. And I talked to Ron Johnson. And Ron talked about his experience at Apple. He's got a new book out, by the way. his experience at Apple. He created the Apple Store, the Genius Bar, some different things like that. Went to JCPenney. Didn't go so well. Didn't go so well. What's your take? To me, it's an example how what was required in JCPenney

was a different kind of identity that he created until that time. So the achieved identity was not anymore sufficient for the new created identity that was in a very different environment. There are a number of stories in the book of people like, let me give you some examples, Fiorina. Fiorina, you know, if you know the story, Fiorina, the former CEO of Hewlett Packard, so HP, that was a great, great leader, but she had one single view of seeing her leadership, and then she failed to appreciate the culture where she was in, and HP was very different than the previous experience. There are a number of stories. I wrote an article on Fortune talking about Apple, about Tim Cook. Tim Cook, I have my take about what happened to Tim Cook and it's not criticism but Tim Cook has been an incredible leader one of the best sections in the history of corporate but he was a very controlled guy he has a very methodical structure, operation oriented and in my opinion and that might be one of the reasons why he was replaced by the board

with the upcoming force of AI I feel like Tim was not his identity was not good enough or the right identity needed for the next evolution of Apple, which was more about creative, flexible. So he's a sort of different leader. So that is one of the main examples of the book. It comes back to the identity, in my opinion. Yeah, it makes so much sense. You're right, Tim. I think I'm not the expert. You're more the expert than me. But he did an amazing job in terms of their revenue and everything else like that. But if you're talking invention, yeah, he wasn't Steve Jobs in that way. I will give Ron Johnson this. When I had him on the podcast, you should listen to that one. I brought it up because I got to, and I asked, they said, you've got to tell me about JCPenney. And he basically said, yo, look, I messed up. I didn't get it right. I didn't get it right. To me, that was leadership, and I was really respectful of that. Very few will say, hey, I didn't do it right. And they'll say, ah, this was wrong, and this was wrong, and this was wrong.

But he pretty much said, at least the way I interpreted it was like, hey, I didn't get it done. I made some gambles that didn't work. I thought people would change in a different way, and I didn't get it done. I respect people that own their stuff. Let's put it that way. That is great. Owning their own mistakes. And I mean, gosh, if only we had more leaders doing that, we would be in a very good place. Totally. He was a good guy. Hey, before we break, where can folks reach you and where can folks get your book? Yeah. So they can reach me on LinkedIn. I think that is probably the best place. So I have a quite good number of following and very active. So this is the place to get inspired. And for the book is reinventionatthetop.com. So where people can reorder and based on the time when this episode will go live, maybe they can already buy and get the book. Thank you, man. This is amazing. You're a great interview. So I appreciate you. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much, Al. Like I always say it in the podcast, hit us on AlMartinTalksData at gmail.com.

Love to hear from you. Get the people on. I mean, look, Andrea, amazing. You get guests like that. So please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, we'll see you on the podcast. Thank you so much.