リード・ホフマンとOpenAI CFOサラ・フライヤーが語る、AIはこれからどこへ向かうのか

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and I'll be your host as each episode breaks down what you need to know right now. You can find Rapid Response wherever you get your podcasts. On Masters of Scale, iconic leaders reveal how they've beaten the odds. asking really strong questions is a superpower. You want to show up with something radically different and how they've grown companies to incredible heights. The greatest rewards always come from the greatest risk. That's hit the gas. Airbnb, Zillow, Microsoft, Liquid Death, and more. Hear from the founders who've changed the game. It's anything but business as usual. Find Masters of Scale on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever else you get podcasts. Trust is earned. It's not just doesn't just fall down on you like manna from heaven.

It is earned. So it takes time and it's grindy. About a third of those 1.2 billion people around the globe ask chat TV, a health or wellness question every week. And if you go look in health desert, that number spikes. It can be upwards of 80-90% of all users are using it for health and wellness. We just announced this morning 100,000 advertisers on the platform. It's important because those 1.2 billion people, 90% of them can get AI for free because we're building a durable business model behind it. And free is important because our mission is AGI for the benefit of humanity. not AGI for the benefit of humanity who can pay for it. Hi folks, Jeff Furman here. Masters of Scale Summit is happening right now in San Francisco. You will hear more of the phenomenal conversations from the summit stage on Masters of Scale,

rapid response, and pioneers of AI in the weeks ahead. But we wanted you to hear this one right away. In today's episode, our very own Reid Hoffman sits down with OpenAI Chief Financial Officer Sarah Fryer. They discuss the Frontier AI company's role in this extraordinary moment and what is coming next. Stay tuned. Okay, we're still alive. Yes, exactly. Okay, since we're in a Hertz conference, we get a little hug. Yeah, exactly. Well, it's, you know, super smart and super wonderful, I think, is the right way to describe you. I will give you the check. So let's start with what is the kind of age that is the age of AI? Wow, that is a big question. Well, thank you for letting us be here.

We are in an incredible moment to be alive. A lot of people talk about the age of AI as another industrial revolution, right? We light the rail tracks. We put up electricity wires. We kind of gave people the first taste of what it was like to get an extra hour of light in their homes. And I think we're in that early, early zone in the age of AI. But I think it's so much more than that. Sam has used this term, a renaissance of creativity and innovation. We announced yesterday the acquisition of a company called Orchestra Bio. And what is that? It's a platform for AI agents and scientists, so this is working together, to speed up drug discovery, drug delivery out into the world. Beyond that, if you look at our platform today, at OpenAI, what we're seeing is people going from asking, so the kind of chat GPT moment, to doing, so the agentec moment,

to actually really proactive. Everybody in the world can now have a virtual coworker. And, you know, what does that mean for 1.2 billion people who use chat GPT every week? That's a fifth of the world's population. And they might be asking something fairly prosaic, like, what do I make for dinner tonight for my picky kid? or literally doing something that is life-changing. That's what we're talking about. And just a couple more comments on then what it means for OpenAI. We are seeing an incredible inflection in our business too. So of those, you know, for example, in ads, we just announced this morning 100,000 advertisers on the platform, now offering in 89 different countries. But why is that important? It's important because those 1.2 billion people, 90% of them can get AI for free because we're building a durable business model behind it.

And free is important because our mission is AGI for the benefit of humanity, not AGI for the benefit of humanity who can pay for it or who live inside a corporation. Literally everyday people getting to benefit. And then we're going to talk about it, but it's not without risk either. These models, you know, because I remember when you called me about Dolly and you were talking about a panda riding a bicycle, and I was like, why is Reid Olsen excited about a panda riding a bicycle? But we can talk about that later. But they're very powerful in areas like cyber. The bad guys are getting access to very powerful Chinese models. we need to make sure the good guys, the defenders, have the tools. This morning, the journal just ran an article about PHP, where we've been working with them since the end of the summer when we discovered using actually an N-1 model, 5-6-SOL, a set of vulnerabilities in PHP, which really means the Internet.

So about 70% of websites would have been impacted, would have brought down probably a lot of the Internet. So we've been working in a very secret way to get those vulnerabilities fixed before the offense discovers them. And so happy to announce today that we've done that work. Is the work done? Definitely not. Is the bar going to keep getting raised? Absolutely. But, yeah, the age of AI. I mean, I'm grateful to be alive. Yeah, what a time to be alive. So last year we had Brené Brown on, and part of the thing for leadership, and leadership in these times where we redefining the scope of how society you know industry operate what it means to be human where are we going it's important to have the cycles to think about the, like, big questions to make the space for that. So how do you do that? How does OpenAI do that, given that the questions here are, like, the invention of electricity?

The invention of the printing press. So how do you make that space for these kind of important, very big thoughts? Yeah, and the printing press for electricity happened a little bit at a much slower pace, although I bet if you lived then, you thought it was an incredible pace, by the way. To make the space, we've used a phrase called pacing the frontier, and pacing the frontier is really about, as we think about safety and alignment, giving our researchers and our whole company and the world to some degree time to digest, like, what are the implications? So right now we have paced the frontier most recently by actually holding back our most powerful model, partially because we want to make sure the safety and alignment is at a place where our researchers have a time to really think it through. That model is the model that solves the Navier-Stokes Millennium Math Problem. And also about 350 more theorems have certainly moved along from a theoretical proof perspective.

What I think a lot about internally, where I try to make the space is theories are great, and we need to work closely with the scientific community on that. But what does it actually mean in practice? Like, you know, I was a material scientist, so I actually remember Navier Stokes coming up, only because I think Stokes was Irish. So I was very taken by that. I'm Northern Irish, in case you wonder why I'm going down that track. hence the green shoes. But what does it really mean when you discover something in fluid dynamics from a theoretical math problem? It means now we actually can have thoughts on how to make heart valves in artificial hearts just more efficient, more effective. It means data center cooling actually can become more efficient, which means that when we go into communities and talk about water use, we now can talk about less water being required. It's about two Olympic swimming pool sizes, by the way, for a data center, particularly one with a closed loop cooling system that uses about 300 households worth of water per year.

So it's not a big amount of water. But if we can make that 100 households, suddenly it's a much better conversation with the community. So to me, finding the time is about allowing that pacing of the frontier. It's allowing, like if you saw us at work, we really try to, we just had an offset last week at Sam's house. It's Friday and Saturday. You give up all your time to sit down and have these much deeper conversations. So unlike a lot of having grown up somewhat in corporate America, you did offsites, and it was to talk about what's our revenue going to look like next year or next quarter, and how are we going to think about headcount and so on. I would say that shrinks back a lot. That's still my job to make sure we have a strong financial footing. But most of the space is for these much bigger conversations. And, of course, it's how do we engage with the world writ large as we have those conversations and help people understand the pace at which we're moving. Yeah. Well, one of the key things is trust, because trust in all institutions is at an all-time low, right?

I mean, it's actually disastrous for society. It's disastrous for us functioning. And obviously it makes business itself difficult. but given AI and given the problem is that most people are like, ah, what's going on? What's the work, what's the effort to try to build some understanding and trust? Like what are you doing? What is OpenAI doing? What can people do to kind of help understand that? Yeah. So first of all, trust is earned. It doesn't just fall down on you like manna from heaven. It is earned. So it takes time and it's grindy. because, you know, I always call you filling the bucket because we all, things will happen where you take, I always tell my kids, like you'll take stuff out of the bucket, but you've got to fill the bucket. I would start by saying something like healthcare is actually a very strong footing for us in a world where people do trust AI and healthcare together. So of those 1.2 billion people around the globe,

about a third ask Chat2BT a health or wellness question every week. And if you go look in health deserts, like West Texas, for example, the health desert, that number spikes. It's not a third. It can be upwards of 80, 90 percent of all users are using it for health or wellness. So that's kind of a starting point where consumers feel it. Then we can create tools for physicians, which we've done. And to me, that's important because if you look at AI and the world of medicine, there's a lot we can talk about, you know, better, faster drug discovery, right? In Boston Children's Hospital, they gave us genetic data, diagnostic data, scientific literature. And today, I think they gave us something like 300 plus not yet resolved diseases to try to resolve. And today we've gotten to 40. So still a lot to get. But what does what 40 mean? It means answers for families who didn't have an answer before. But for physicians, a lot of what happens, or nurses, like the whole gamut, a lot of their work is paperwork.

My brother is a doctor in the UK, in the NHS. He's an HDU doctor. What that means is if you show up in the ER, his job is to right away triage you. If you're having a heart attack, you go to cardio. If you've got a gunshot wound, you go to trauma. But mostly, you don't know. And you do not want to show up in front of my brother. That is not because he's not a doctor, but it means not good things are happening for you. You're in trouble. Do you think that this man wants to do paperwork in that moment? Let me fill out a form. He's like, no, I'm in. What can I do? And when I talk to him about how much he does spend time on paperwork, we can shrink that. So then if you think about how we work with enterprises, we work with some of the largest hospital chains in the world. And there we just did a proof of concept that showed HCA, which is the largest in the U.S., that we could speed the time a patient spends in a hospital, lowering it by 25%. What that means is those patients get out of hospital faster, into community medicine,

and they're not getting sicker. Because often if you hang around in the hospital too much, you will actually just catch the next disease. So it's a way to talk about the unified platform that OpenAI is building, on consumers to individual, you know, it could be a dentist's office, a doctor's office, to a large enterprise. And it's important that we're touching all three, which comes back to your question of trust, because then you start earning trust because you're showing up, creating outcomes, and you're not just telling the world, trust us, AI is great. You're actually showing what these magical outcomes can be. So one of the things that kind of throws people off, and I think it's good for Sam to have said things like this, which is you have to accept some of the bad things, some of the risks, et cetera, because that is what the path looks like in order to deploy to the good things. What's the way that kind of you're, because, you know, one of your primary jobs is also navigation of risk. How do you get both like from your approach and also open and I think okay here how we navigate risk in order to get these good things So first of all it deeply embedded at the company level through our mission So AGI for the benefit of humanity

If we don't manage risk, we will not be able to achieve the mission. And so that actually is a very strong alignment function for us internally, because then every decision we make, from small to really big ones, has to come back to say, is it mission aligned? So in terms of the managing of risks, sometimes, again, it's always actions speak louder than words, right? In the case of models that are very cyber capable, we have both, number one, held back models till we're sure. That's not necessarily great for business in the short run, but it's absolutely mission aligned and I believe good for business in the long run. Second is to do the work, right, with something like what we saw with Agentex Swarms, making sure we feel it's safe to now start repacing at the frontier. And then I think the third thing is going out into the world. Like there's risk inside of our business, but frankly, I feel like I've been on a personal world tour

to remind everyone where we are with cyber and the need to patch those vulnerabilities because it's starting to happen. I think I was in Europe, I don't think. Last week I was in Europe. Bad tick. I was in Europe. And one of the news reports was a supermarket chain in France where hackers had gotten into their systems and turned up the temperature on their freezers, spoiling all of the frozen goods. Like that is the sort of hacking that we have not really seen historically. Before we've thought about ransomware and trying to break into banks to steal money. But this is going to start happening in many, many other ways. I started my career actually covering InfoSec. So I've seen the original viruses, NMDA, CodeRats. We're just on a continuum of that. But again, the speed is ticking up. And I think part of earning trust is showing people, like, this is where we're going. And then providing them frontier tools to be on the defense.

Everybody has a hot take on the economy. And whether you're curious about inflation, trade wars, or the markets, what you need is reporting you can trust. Hi, I'm Kai Rizdahl, the host of Marketplace. Our award-winning reporters talk to everybody from CEOs to farmers to help you understand how the economy takes shape in the real world. You'll be smarter every time you listen. And these days, that's priceless. Listen to Marketplace on your favorite podcast app. So one of the things is the risk is going to have to be managed, not just from OpenAI, but from the industry, from governments, from banks, from folks with frozen good freezers, etc. How do you kind of help, like how should each people think about their responsibilities? What is your hope for what is the various ways to work together? Either companies and companies, industries, government. How do we collectively navigate these risks?

Yeah, so first of all, at the industry level, I mean, first of all, it's just getting started, right? We are seeing some really major shifts happen, and we have a phenomenal economic research team. And some of the data they put up in September showed, if you look at on our platform, and we get to see a broad swath of what are companies doing today, the frontier firms that we define as kind of the top 10% of companies in the world, the number of agentic tokens they're using today versus even just an average firm is about 8x. And that number has gone from about 2x back in January. So actually the pace of companies using technology has really started to accelerate for the frontier. And if you're average or go for a bit below average, you cannot get left behind. And I'll give you another stat. At OpenAI, I internally often say we have this benefit of living in the future. Let's not waste it. So if you were to look at our agentic token use, it's 33x the frontier.

So my belief is in a year from now, two years from now, the frontier firms will have caught up to us. The traditional firms will have caught up to the frontier. And so that growth is happening. That transformation is happening. Of course, what does that really mean inside of companies? That means you're probably starting with things like coding tools. You've now started to deploy cyber. you're starting to deploy knowledge work like dots the product we just rolled out so the virtual assistant mine is called una she has a fine irish name because una was the wife of fin mccool if you know any northern irish mythology he was the giant but his wife was the brains of the operation she was una is my brain of the operation yes female power yes um but they're starting to roll out that knowledge work where people literally have that virtual co-worker and then they're starting to transform based on their vertical, like a life sciences company, a chip design company, you name it, a bank, or by horizontal. Like actually what I'm seeing in the office of the CFO, right? I'm trying to do finance like no one's ever done it before.

We are doing finance like no one's ever done it. So that's kind of one way is how do we talk to companies and make it real? By the way, we just announced this morning we're live on GCP on Google, so we now can meet our customers on every cloud that exists, all the big ones, Amazon, Azure, GCP, Oracle. That's going to be a huge tailwind into 2027. On the government front, it's also about going to meet governments where they are. The reason I was in Dublin is Ireland right now has the presidency of the EU. I wanted to spend time with the Taoiseach because I'm probably one of the few people that can say his title correctly. Yes, but do tell them what it is because while I know what Taoiseach is, But Taoiseach is the prime minister, effectively as president, whatever your title, but Taoiseach and Taoiseach. Because we really want to make sure continents like Europe don't get left behind. Right in that top 10 percent of frontier firms that we see, only 10 percent of them are European based. So what's that going to mean for GDP growth in Europe?

You do not want to get left behind again like you did to some degree in the Internet revolution. so it's both bringing governments along but also recognizing look we are talking about having regulation that makes sense for frontier labs and today we work with organizations like cassie here in the u.s as i the aisi in the uk but you have to find people who can actually keep pace with you those two organizations do but i think those are some of the main ways like inside of organizations meeting them where they are, solving their actual problems, not being sort of made up like here's what you could do, here's what you can do. And then a government's showing up and making sure we're part of the conversation. So our theme for Masters of Scale Summit this year is our agency. It's not just because I wrote this book, Super Agency, that I know you have a copy of. Thank you. Because I sent you one. No, no. I bought it off the shelf.

I've got it five times. But we actually talked about it. So it wasn't meant to be quite so self-deprecating, but it is entertaining. So one of the reasons I did this is because it's really important, and part of the reason why we're doing the summit this way, it's really important to realize that agency is some degree of mindset. Like people worry about AI because they worry about it like taking my agency from me It takes my job It takes my cognition to take CEDO know and it like no no that a question of mindset how you approach it how you engage it So how do you think about how the world at large, not just the builders of these amazing AI, should think about their agency and how should they kind of embody their agency with AI? Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, I just find extremist conversations so frustrating. There's so much nuance and shades of everything between white and whatever color we're going over here.

The reality is if we go to the world of jobs to start with, jobs are changing. But actually, work is changing inside of jobs. Again, what we see in our research is about if you look at someone's job title, but then how they use ChatGPT, they only use it for about 40% of what their job title says. Let me make that a little more real. As a finance person, if you show up with a finance job title today on our platform, you do about 25% of your tasks on ChatGPT that are truly financial. Like run me a DCF or God, I've started to talk in finance. Okay. Do a reconciliation of treasury or whatever. 25% are engineering tasks. What does that mean? It means everyone has now become a builder. I am like set free to now build sites, to build like whether it's for fun stuff, to professional stuff, in a way that, you know, I've done more coding in the last two months than from way back when I actually was an engineer.

And now the coding language for me is English. I just talk to my computer. I don't even tippy-tap anymore. So 25% is engineering. 25% is marketing, which gladdens my heart because I tell finance people all the time, if you don't realize you're in sales, you are losing because you need to go sell. You need to sell an annual plan. You need to go sell a change to a number. You need to sell a budget. You really need to sell a budget. Pick date, opening eye, chasing people to a budget. It's a sales motion in and of itself. So people's jobs are really changing. Again, sorry, because Dublin is very fresh in my mind. I did an event on Monday night. You know I have a nonprofit on the side that I do with an amazing co-founder called Ladies Who Launch. So it was about 250 to 300 women in the room. And just this excitement on stage of them talking about how empowered they felt, how much agency they had gotten back. They were talking about, oh, my goodness, when I did my first startup, and I used to be awake to the wee small hours creating the pitch deck,

because I had, you know, my two kids, I had to get them to bed, and then I would start the work. Or then I would walk into these meetings to fundraise, and people would blind me with, like, DCS-type terms that I didn't know what that meant. Now I just sit there, and I ask chat, and I feel so empowered. Two, I was talking about it earlier in the green room. One of my best examples was Lynda.ai. This is a company built by two sisters in Dublin. Their dad is a dentist. he had a receptionist which is their word um called linda and their whole lives was how do we clone linda because linda was so good they have cloned linda in linda.ai linda.ai worked with linda to call the 600 people he had in his receipt you know in his contacts to say hey you should come in and get your teeth cleaned or looked at or whatever three days later because linda.ai doesn't stop, Lynda.ai had 250 new scheduled patients coming in.

So it's great for the dentist. It's great for the people. And it's great for teeth. And that, to me, is agency coming back into the world in really optimistic ways. I am super optimistic for the builders of the world because they are empowered like never before. A hundred percent. So we only have a couple of minutes left. And by the way, thank you for the gymnastics. I know you did on your calendar in order to get here and be with us. For you, it's always good. No. But I actually think it's worth sharing where are you going to next and why. Okay. Okay. So I'm running out the door. For Reed, I will make everything work. But today I'm supposed to be in Savannah, Georgia, which I'm super excited to go to. We have a new Powered Land site that's going to become a large data center. and I want to go spend some time with the community because data centers clearly can be a contentious conversation. For communities, they can be really good.

They bring jobs, like really high-skilled jobs, like Abilene, Texas, that West Texas that I was just talking about. They bring electricians, HVAC. We do a lot in the community to actually give people those skill sets. And so we find a lot of the unions actually are quite excited, by what's coming. In Georgia, what we've done is given the community an $80 million grant that they can deploy over five years, but they get to decide what it means. Like, what do they want to do? And the very first ask that came to me was, we would like to pay for free school dinners or free school lunches. And I was like, absolutely. Like, how much is it? It's like $4.5 million. I'm like, that is an easy decision. And since we did that, the number of the uptake on this free lunch has gone up 50%. It's not to give us like a huge amount of kudos. I'm actually saying it because I think this is where you earn trust. You go, you listen, you hear concerns, you talk about how you're mitigating, you bring

communities along, but most importantly, you show up and you don't tell them what they need to do. You ask them. and I think this is the important part about re-industrializing America right now. In totality, AI is probably adding about a point to GDP, depending on how you cut it. That is growth. Growth baguettes better outcomes, I think, for the nation writ large. And this is why I want to see growth not just here, but I'd like to see it back in my homeland. I'd like to see it back in my home continent. I would like to see it around the world. and I think I'm, you know, like we said at the beginning of this talk, there's never been a better time to be alive. We need to figure out how to embrace while managing the risks, but how cool that we get to do this. So you can see why I wanted to open with Sarah. Let's give her a hand. Thank you. Thanks so much to OpenAI's Sarah Fryer for joining us at the 2026 Masters of Scale Summit.

This conversation was recorded live at the Presidio Theater in San Francisco. For more from the event, be sure to check out our YouTube channel. Masters of Scale is a Wait What original. Our executive producer is Eve Trow. Senior supervising producer is Tricia Bobita. Associate producer is Masha Makatanina. Video editor is M.G. Frederick. Senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys themselves, Aaron Bestinelli and Brian Pugh with original music by the remarkable Ryan Holiday. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter. And be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel.