データセンターを法廷へ――Foxglove共同代表 Martha Dark が語る英国・南アフリカの法的闘争

We aren't going to get the right regulation and the right development of AI infrastructure unless we fight for it. And I personally am very in awe of all of the fights all over the world, whether they're legal, whether they're kind of community resistance, whether they're policy. I think the only way we're going to get what we want is if we continue taking these fights to our lawmakers and to our decision makers and causing a huge fuss. And I'm hopeful that the tide is beginning to turn, I think. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us. I'm in partnership with The Nation magazine. I'm your host, Paris Marks. And before we get to this week's guest, as you'll probably know by now, my new book, Hyperscale, is out in less than a week. It's hard to even imagine that, but here we are, and it's probably not worth me dwelling on too much

because it's just wild that this book I worked on for basically two years is finally out in the world. As I mentioned last week, it means a lot if you go pre-order a copy of the book. Even this close to release, it does make a difference. And so I will put links in the show notes. There will probably be a QR code here on the screen for you to go pre-order your own copy of Hyperscale so you can support me. That's the best way to support me right now is by getting a copy, pre-ordering a copy of the book, because it not only means that I'm selling books, but it also sends a signal to booksellers that people are interested in this book, that people wanna read this book, that this is a topic that matters to people. So yeah, you'd be really helping me out if you go grab a copy of Hyperscale. So thank you so much for that. I would also be remiss not to note that I will be doing a bunch of events in the coming months because my book is coming out naturally. And I wanted to let you know when some of those are, if you did want to come out and see me. So I will actually be in Paris this weekend on October 17th at an event put on by Mediapar.

On October 23rd, I will be in Montreal doing an event with Rachel Gilmore. On October 26th, I'll be in London doing an event with Fox Glove. You know, and our guest from today is from Fox Glove. I'll talk about that in just a minute. And the Macrodose podcast, I'll be in Bristol on October 29th. Back in the U.S. in Boston on November 3rd. Baltimore on November 4th. Pittsburgh on November 6th, Oakland, California, and San Francisco on November 8th. Los Angeles, I'll be doing events there on November 9th and 10th. Then I'll be back in Canada, in Toronto on November 13th, Hamilton, Ontario on November 14th, Ottawa, Ontario on November 15th, and then some West Coast states, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton after that. And if you are in Europe and saying, hey, Paris isn't coming to Europe, stay tuned. I'll have some things to announce in early, mid-December on that front. So, you know, just give me a bit of time and I will let you know on the podcast when that is happening. Of course, if you want more information, if you want to like RSVP, get tickets, all that kind of stuff, there will be a link in the show notes to the page on my website where all that is listed

and where more events will be listed as they get confirmed. And of course, where links will be added and all that kind of stuff too. So stay tuned. Hopefully I will see you at one of the events that I am doing. And of course, make sure to preorder a copy of Hyperscale. Now, with all that said, my guest this week is Martha Dark, the co-executive director of Foxglove, which is a fantastic organization in the UK that has been doing a lot of legal challenges against data centers, but not just in the UK. They have been working with groups in Brazil and South Africa and beyond. And I wanted to have Martha on the show, not just because I was interested in what was going on in the UK and in South Africa, and we will talk about different cases in both of those countries that they have been involved with, but also because we talk a lot about people showing up at their councils and pushing back against data centers in that way, or showing up to committee hearings or things like that, that other levels of government put on. But there is another way to challenge data centers and to try to defeat them, and that is through the courts, right? And that is the path that Fox Club has been taking, where they have had the first successful challenge to a data center in the United Kingdom.

And, you know, they're bringing that work to not just other data centers in the United Kingdom, but as I was saying, in South Africa and other countries as well. And so I think that this gives us another perspective on how to push back on data centers. but of course we also learn from Martha about the specific issues that we have been seeing in the cases that she has been dealing with. So we can see other ways that data center fights can take place. So with all that said, I think that you're really going to enjoy this conversation. As always, you can become a Patreon supporter over at patreon.com slash techwontsaveus. But if you really want to help me out, make sure to pre-order a copy of my book, HyperScale. You can find more information at hyperscalebook.com or of course go wherever you tend to pre-order books or buy books, get one there. Certainly your local bookstore can help you out on that, or there will be links in the show notes where you can pre-order a book. Thank you so much, and enjoy this week's conversation. Martha, welcome to Tech Won't Save Us. Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan. Thanks so much. It's obviously great to have you on the show. We've known each other for a while now, and I've been following your work in the UK.

and this month, you know, as my book is coming out, I figured it would be a good opportunity to have some conversations with people in, you know, different parts of the world doing different things and, you know, you and your organization are involved in work in the UK but also in South Africa and I figured that would be a good opportunity for us to get insight into what's happening in a few different areas. And so I want to start by asking you about Fox Club itself, right? Because for a lot of people outside the UK and maybe even within the UK itself, they will not be familiar with your organization. So can you tell us a bit about what Foxglove is, how it actually got started and how you're approaching these data center issues? Yeah. So Foxglove is a litigation and campaigning nonprofit. I also over the years have realized that the name Foxglove doesn't transfer or translate outside of the UK that well because it's an English wildflower. And a bit like tech is, it's a poison and a cure. And it pops up where you least expect, hopefully like us. But that was the thinking behind the name. but people outside of England are often like foxglove.

Yeah, I was imagining like, you know, the animal, the fox. Yeah, I certainly wasn't making the connection. But we see big tech companies. So we see them when they've used their power, their workers or the planet. And we founded in 2019. So we're about seven years old now. And at the time that we founded, a lot of the focus in the kind of tech space was about sort of post-Snowden's state surveillance revelations. And at the time, there was a lot of attention on states' valence. And I think private companies sort of marched in the side door with none of the regulation or scrutiny and hoovered up all of the data and sort of amassed more power and wealth than many of those states. And the harms at the time, and I mean, I think still, were everywhere. We thought there was a unique moment for an organization to bring cases against the big tech companies. we saw a gap to kind of try to bring cases that didn't seek damages specifically but saw behavioral change by the companies these companies weren't then going to change out of the goodness

of their hearts and they certainly aren't now and so i think there's a really important role for the courts and i think the courts can or legal cases can kind of play a really important role in creating a wider public conversation about an issue and if you fast forward to today seven years We have cases against companies like Amazon and Google and Meta and TikTok. And there are a range of cases. Quite a lot of them are labor cases. So we support tech workers who mostly have had their unions busted or are working in very unfair working conditions at companies like Meta and Google and Amazon. And we bring anti-monopoly cases. Most of that works trying to stop kind of Google's new AI products stealing independent news. We bring some cases against META, which is trying to change the way that the algorithm amplifies hate and violence, particularly in conflict zones. And then, yeah, finally, like you said, we challenge data center expansion, not to kind of stop the development of data centers, but to do what we can to ensure that they don't come at the cost of the planet, I suppose.

Yeah, and I think what you've laid out there is a bunch of important issues, right, that certainly people paying attention to this podcast really care about. And so it's really important work. And I feel like there's two things that really come to mind, right? You know, on the first, you're talking about getting those behavioral changes, right? And, you know, just to kind of give an example of that, I guess something similar to what you're trying to achieve there would be what we saw in California recently, where Meta had to agree to these changes to its platform in the United States alone for now, in terms of how it operates for younger users and things like that, right? And so certainly there were damages in that case as well. It's had to pay, I think, billions of dollars or something like that. But there's also the change to the platform itself that is required as part of that legal challenge that I believe in that case was brought by the states or a certain number of states. And then the other piece of that, I guess, is when we're thinking about data centers, I feel like often the discussion that we're having around opposition is local people in their communities going to town halls, pushing back in that way against these projects. But I

guess what you're talking about is certainly another route that can achieve these wins in another way that is important to have as, you know, kind of another tool in the toolbox, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think there's such an important place for work that seeks structural changes. Not to say that damages aren't important. People absolutely should be compensated if they've been harmed by these companies. But the fines generally, when we're talking about the size and power and wealth of these companies, they're some of the richest in history. And the fines that are imposed on them are absolute pocket change and will not fix, in some cases, the harms that those companies are causing. I mean, you know, a couple of the fines in recent years, when these companies are fined, their share prices go up, right? Because it's understood that, you know, all the thing that might have happened has now happened. So we understand the risk level. And so, yeah, courts and regulators and all of us coming together, I think, in this moment to say, actually, we don't accept the status quo in the way that these big tech companies operate.

Here's some ideas about how you might do it instead in a way that's more lawful and in line with what people expect and want from these companies and their services. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, before we get on to the data center piece, is there a case that you have worked on, you know, over the past seven years of this organization that really stands out to you as one that, you know, that really meant a lot to you or that you felt had like a really significant impact for you? Yeah. So you mentioned the Meta cases in the US. We, since 2021, have worked on a case against Meta in Kenya. And it's very similar to some of the cases that you're seeing in the US in the sense that Abraham is a man whose father was very sadly killed after Facebook's algorithms amplified calls for his murder. And Abraham is bringing a case in the Kenyan courts because Kenya was the sort of decision making hub for content decisions around Facebook during the most recent Ethiopian conflict.

Abraham's dad wasn't someone who used Facebook. This post appeared calling for his death, sharing his location. And Facebook's business model meant that that post was amplified and really sadly his dad was murdered. And Abraham's case is so important because he's seeking structural changes to the way that the algorithm works. And all of his work and all of his fight is about trying to stop this from happening to someone else's family. And the reason I think that case is so important to me is because so much of the conversation and the debate about online harm, I don't really like the term online harms, but online harms is focused on Europe and America. and these these disclosures are a little old now but if you look at what francis haugen disclosed meta knowingly causes more harm in the non-english speaking world like i think they spent something like 97 percent of their trust and safety budget on the english speaking world which leaves three percent for like everywhere else and so that case is really important to me partly because it's supporting like abraham's fight is to try and get justice for his dad but he's also fighting to

try to stop companies like Meta behaving in such a discriminatory way and just not investing properly in terms of safety in terms of safety in other countries outside of the US. Yeah, a really shocking case, as you were talking about, I remember reading about it a few years ago, I think in Business Insider, but maybe my, that was it. Yeah, great. I figured that was the one that I wasn't 100% certain. But yeah, like, I think that that is so important, right? because we do often forget that these companies are focused on, you know, the bad PR stories that might come in the global north. And so, you know, focus more of their work there, though, even then, I feel like they've pulled back in recent years, even on that. But so many other parts of the world are just kind of left to deal with the effects of, you know, these platforms just operating without much, you know, kind of scrutiny or oversight at all. And that has very real harms, as you're talking about in Ethiopia, but so many other places, too. Before we get on to the data centers you know obviously we've mentioned and we're going to be talking a bit about the the UK

and then South Africa can you talk about the scope of Fox Club's work as well you know kind of where you're you're kind of operating yeah so we're based in the UK but we partner with organizations in lots of different places um mostly we partner with actually we don't really there's not we partner with like unions with other law firms with people who've been harmed by big tech by individual lawyers, or with individual lawyers, sorry. And then mostly our work is in Kenya, South Africa, Brazil, the UK, and Europe. It's great to hear that you guys are operating in so many different places, right? Because obviously the harms of the tech industry do not just reside in the UK, but in so many other areas of the world. And certainly, as you said before, these companies care far less about the harms that they cause in the global south in particular than in other countries. Now, I do want to start talking about the UK and the work that you've been doing there. But first, I was hoping that you could kind of set a, you know, set a picture for us of what we're seeing in the UK with regard to data centers and the data center build out.

You know, what is the state of the construction of data centers and, you know, the proposals for data centers in the UK at the moment? How is the government responding to that? And how quickly have you seen the opposition to these projects escalate? For a relatively small set of islands the UK has got huge AI infrastructural developments We I think one of the most densely populated of data centres in Europe And the UK has about, I think it's like 470 data centres, and there are proposals for hundreds more. The UK has really moved mountains and done whatever it can to ensure that AI infrastructural growth in the UK can happen. So that includes things like data centers, I think it was in September, were designated nationally significant infrastructure projects, which means that they're given like a protected status, like the same status as, say, hospitals or military bases. And it means that it restricts some of the public's kind of ability to oppose them. But it also means that it takes decisions about data center development away from local communities into central government.

so that I think gives you an indication about how seriously the UK is taking data center and AI infrastructural development here and again for like quite a small island some of them are absolutely massive so there's one in in North Lincolnshire which would use over a gigawatt of energy and I realize numbers are sometimes really hard to like hard to relate to it for me I often find but I think of it in the context of that's about the energy of a million homes and that's just one of those data centers. And just to give the kind of wider political context of data center expansion in the UK, we recently had a change of prime minister in the UK. It was Kiss Starmer and now it's Andy Burnham. And under the Starmer government, it was no secret that AI and AI infrastructure was being seen as the silver bullet to the UK's economic problems. I mean, we can talk about that more, but Burnham came in over the summer and it kind of remains to seen as to you know whether he'll take a different approach and stance on data centers as in kind of

many parts of the world there isn't a sort of coherent set of regulations governing how ai infrastructure and data centers expands in in the uk and one of the things that i think is really missing is there haven't been any sort of assessment of the actual need for the ai infrastructure and what the benefits to the economy are with we're told time and time again that there's kind of billions of foreign investment coming into the uk and it will help the british economy but without really having an understanding of what that means. And we're also seeing lots of data centres' decisions, and I can talk more about the one that we've recently challenged, but a lot of data centre decisions when local communities say, or local councils say, no, we don't want this data centre in our backyard, the central government then overrules that and overthrows that. So I would say we're in a moment of, or we have been in a moment for the last few years of sort of government doing whatever it can to push through data centers, to push through as many planning proposals as possible.

And in the last sort of few months, I think the conversation has been beginning to change in the UK. I mean, that's partly because I think it's so dominated the US midterms and the kind of news cycle that that's sort of osmos over in some way. But also, like the rest of Europe, we've had super punishing heat waves all summer, which has changed the public debate, I think, about energy and water and emissions and, you know, what Britain's saying about our ability to meet our net zero commitments and that sort of thing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, right? You know, seeing these massive heat waves that, you know, so many parts of Europe were getting. But, you know, obviously over in North America, I feel like sometimes we can forget how little air conditioning there is in Europe and how many people suffer through that, right? Especially in Northern Europe and those kinds of places. And it can be really brutal and punishing. And, you know, it's not like it's just this year that they happened, but it's like year on year. It feels like they're getting worse and worse, these heat waves across Europe and the U.K.

You mentioned there how the government has been really behind these proposals, right, really supporting them. And, you know, I remember reading about how they were even designating these like AI growth zones around the UK, right? You know, again, going along with this narrative you were talking about that they're going to be really great for the economy, that they're going to, you know, kind of spur this investment, all this kind of stuff, especially when the UK is, of course, facing the like, you know, kind of long tail effects of Brexit and the impact that's had on the economy. Has the discussion shifted at all around the potential economic benefits of having all these data centers be located in the UK? Or is the assertion still that, you know, we need to adopt this because it's essential for the economy, even, I guess, in the absence of evidence that that is the case? That's a really good question. So the growth zone, I've been thinking a lot about the growth zone, just briefly before we come on to the economic arguments. on the growth side of things, that's been really something that's really hit home for me. So I grew

up in a very small town about two hours from London called Wantage. And throughout my childhood, there were discussions and debates, like for as long as I can remember, about this reservoir that was supposed to be built near our house. And nobody wanted the reservoir. I mean, I think probably the reservoir should be built, but nobody wanted the reservoir because it meant that a lot of people's homes and farmland was being turned over to this reservoir and there was a lot of concern about the community consent process and that sort of thing. Anyway, fast forward 20 years and that reservoir has now just been pushed through only because central government were able to designate it as an AI growth zone. So that reservoir, like I'm all for that reservoir being built if it's to service homes, if it's to provide proper water infrastructure for the area, but actually it being pushed through as part of this AI growth zone really shows that really what the intention there is for it to service the data centers that will appear in that area given its new AI growth zone status. So it's been really interesting to me to kind of watch that

process over the last 20 years or so. That's so wild and you know just before we get on to you know some of the specific challenges that you've done is this mainly like an England discussion or is this something that's happening kind of across Wales and Scotland as well? No, that's a really good question. So Scotland has been very interesting. Scotland has just imposed a moratorium, I think, last week on data centres. Some of the biggest proposals are in Scotland and Wales and Wales have lots of water issues. So it's definitely not just England, it's sort of across the board that we're seeing it. And you were asking about the kind of conversation about the economic benefits of data centres. And I think across the board, whether it's England, Wales or Scotland, we're just hearing about billions of investment, billions of pounds of foreign investment, how that will be a good thing for the UK economy. And one of the things that I think a lot about when reading those stats is, is the UK really going to benefit from that outside investment? Like, does the money,

when you build a data center in a country stay in the country does the benefits stay in the country because if you look at what the cost of building a data center is i think about half of it's on like computing equipment and chips and chip manufacture like with a total monopoly on chip manufacturing so that money goes back to nvidia presumably and i think the kind of myth about data centers creating jobs has sort of largely been quite debunked the ft here in the uk has done good work around that like the data center developers said oh this will be good for the economy because it will result in thousands of jobs and the ft did the crunch the numbers and read the receipts and actually we're talking about tens of jobs longer term and so all of this kind of billions of investment when i think you start to unpick what actually that results in for uk economies i don't think it's like as funny of a picture as they would like us to believe and i also think if you take a slightly longer lens view at the impact that data center expansion

will have on the economy the truth is they require such grid such amount of energy and water that that is absolutely going to the cost of that expansion is absolutely going to be paid by the taxpayer over the years to come i think we have to be cautious about like how we interpret that information that we're being sold about this being a good thing for the economy because i'm not quite sure it adds up yeah i completely agree with you right and and i feel like just on top of that there's the economic argument like does this actually make sense there's all this money that flows out through the chip companies as you were saying as we're using the ai products like you know they're mostly american products so then all that money that is being you know paid to have subscriptions to the products or pay for your tokens or whatever is then going back to the states Like, how much is this really staying there, especially, as you say, when there's so few jobs, right? And, you know, I remember reading, you know, something on your website that I believe was referring to the BFT article that you mentioned,

where, you know, the government is kind of like echoing the job figures that the data centers themselves are putting out without checking them or clarifying that they're actually like, you know, realistic figures, or I would imagine are mainly referring to like construction jobs and not the jobs that are going to like stick around long term. And I was talking to Will Dunn probably two or three months ago, and he was also talking about the, you know, if your government becomes dependent on these AI tools, you know, what does that actually mean for like, again, dependence on US tech, the type of technology being used, especially in this moment when obviously there's very contentious relations between the UK and the US government at the moment, right? So, yeah, there's a lot in there. I think that's totally right. Often the argument that you hear from politicians who are trying to push through data center expansion is the UK needs sovereign AI. In this moment, we need to have our own systems that if something happens in America doesn't affect us, we have to be able to compete.

But that doesn't quite square, that kind of idea doesn't square with what's actually happening, which is the development of the AI data centers in the UK are for American companies. The biggest ones are for Google, they're for Amazon, and they're for Microsoft. None of that screams sovereign AI. Totally. And, you know, just speaking about some of those data centers, and I want to come on to the legal challenge that you launched in just a minute. But since you're mentioning the Google data centers and things like that, I know that some of the work that you guys have been doing is around the emissions from some of these major data centers, including, I believe, one or two Google data centers in that as well. Can you talk about what we're seeing on that front, too? We're talking about the various issues. Is there an economic benefit? What are the kind of sovereign implications of using all this? But there's also the environmental piece as well. What does that mean for the UK to see the proposals for these massive data centers? Yeah. So the emissions issue is huge here.

And I just need to explain a little bit about how our national grid works. If that isn't too boring for your listeners for that to make sense. So just to give you one example, there's a data center here that's being proposed. Well, there's a few actually of the Google data centers that are some of the biggest. And they are going to be one of those data centers. one of those Google data centers will be so large that if that data center goes through the planning process, that one data center will make it impossible for the UK to meet its legally binding emissions targets. Just that one data center. And when you hear that, you think, and then you pair that with last week, Andy Burnham coming out and saying it is the most important thing that Britain meets its 2050 net zero targets. Like that just doesn't make sense. That doesn't square to me at all that those both of those things are happening at the same time but to briefly explain kind of why we have such an emissions issue and this isn't unique to the UK I know for example like if you I know that in the US there's huge amounts of gas powered turbines that are being that are popping

up for exactly for the purposes of data centers but in the UK we have the national grid which is our kind of energy grid and at the moment there are over 300 data centers who are in the queue to be connected to the UK's electricity grid. So they can wait in line or they can set up their own gas-powered turbines to power the data centre themselves. This is Ofgem, which is our energy regulator's own stats, but they've basically said that the demand for the grid has tripled between, I think it was November 24 and June 25 or something like that. It tripled just because of the amount of data centres that were trying to join the grid. And one of the things that we revealed quite recently, my colleagues Tim and Donald, is that there are these two data centres in the UK, one that's called Wopsies Wood, which I think is a fantastic name in Buckinghamshire, and then one's called Quest Park in Bedfordshire. And those two data centres, well, like based on the developers stats and the proposals alone, will have higher carbon emissions than the UK operations of ExxonMobil.

When you hear that, like, that's just mind-blowing, right? Like, two data centers that are proposed out of hundreds are going to have more emissions than the whole of the UK's ExxonMobil operations. The emissions are through the roof, partly because of this move to gas-powered turbines and gas-powered data centers, because the AI race is such that they don't even feel they can wait for the grid connection. Yeah, it's so wild, right? And as you say, it's not just something that we're seeing in the UK. Like I remember reading about or, you know, speaking to people in Ireland about that happening over there, right? You know, them skipping past the grid and just going to the gas. Obviously, we're seeing it in the U.S. You know, in Canada, there are proposals for that, too. So many different countries, right? This is the model that they're adopting. Meanwhile, the companies still want us to see them as like green and caring about the environment when it's very clear that they have thrown that out, you know, a long time ago. Today's episode is sponsored by Proton. We spend a lot of time talking about who controls technology and whose interest it serves.

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important that we meet our climate commitments. You know, that climate is such a major threat. you know, as of course it is, and, you know, see that very directly with the heat waves that you guys experienced over the summer. But then on the other hand, it's like full steam ahead on these data centers that are making it virtually impossible to actually, you know, meet the moment on the climate threat that we face right at the very moment where it feels like we need to act now or it's going to get, you know, really hard to kind of rein things back in the years to come, right? It's not a great moment. On that kind of downer note. Yeah, cheer us up. Yeah. Let's talk about this legal challenge that you launched last year against a hyperscale data center in the UK with the first time that a hyperscale data center faced a legal challenge in your country. This was obviously a data center at Woodlands Park in Buckinghamshire. Can you talk about why this project in particular stood out as one that you felt needed to be legally challenged, like why this

was one that you felt you needed to get involved in and to launch this. What was so egregious about it? So Woodlands, like you said, is in Buckinghamshire. It's maybe two hours outside of London. And initially, the data centre was actually rejected. The local council and the local community did not want the data centre to be built there. They didn't feel like there was sufficient energy and water and they didn't feel like the plans and the proposals were robust enough. And then central government took the decision out of the community's hands and overturned the decision. So the council had said no, central government said actually you will have that. So it got pushed through. And at that point we were digging into the developers' documents because it's all public in the UK. And they had not even, the developers hadn't even done, this sounds boring, but it's important. They hadn't even done something called the Environmental Impact Assessment, which kind of does what it says on the tin. It talks about energy and water

and the impact on housing and the impact on the local environment. They hadn't even done one. They said they didn't need to do one. And they made all sorts of claims about energy and water. But none of them were legally binding. So it meant that in their planning application to get the thing pushed through, they could say whatever they wanted but then when it came to building the thing and the actual emissions or the actual energy it used or the actual water it used or the type of water cooling that they were going to do which obviously has a huge impact on how much water it uses they weren't legally held to so we brought a legal challenge on the basis that they'd failed to properly assess the environmental impact and how therefore can anyone if they're not providing if developer isn't providing this information about the development how can anyone and make a kind of measured, reasonable assessment about whether this is a good, whether the data centre is a good idea. And ultimately, we won before we got to court because the government came out and said that they'd made a serious logical error in approving the data centre

and that they shouldn't have approved it at all. And we worked with a really cool group here in the UK called Global Action Plan on that. And one of the things that is really important about that case, and I think speaks a bit more broadly to like FoxGov's strategy around data centres in the UK, is there is a total absence of proper regulation about the way that these data centres are built and what the protections are in place around energy, around water, around community consent. And this case set an important precedent, which was to say, in future, data centre developers cannot say whatever they like without being legally held to what they've committed to down the line. And this case changed that. So it was a really important win, I think, for future data center development. It means that they can't say things on forms and then not do it. Absolutely. And so that means, just to be clear, that now, say, if Google proposes the data center in the future and makes claims around its emissions or its water use or its power use or something like that,

that it can be legally held to those claims? That's exactly right. That's fantastic. Awesome. You mentioned that the government conceded that it made a mistake with this data center. Too bad we can't challenge every single data center and get them to make the same admission. But the company also accepted that it needed to basically have these things be made legally binding. Can you talk about that? And have we seen them make the claims then or actually put out some sort of assessment that they can be held to since that occurred? so there is there are plans in the works for about a hundred more to actually over a hundred data centers at the moment in the uk and we've objected to maybe four or five of them and a big part of the objections that we make is that either the companies fail to provide sufficient information about energy and water use in a way that means you can make a proper assessment about whether the development should go ahead.

Or the other kind of often basis of those objections is that what the company is saying it will do isn't compatible with the UK's legally binding emissions targets. And so the objection stage is an interesting stage because it's, and it's not just Fox Love that objects, right? I think like 500 members of the public objected to the Google data centre in Thurrock, which, and those are local residents, right? Those are people who have serious concerns about Google rolling in. So I think it's an interesting, like it's a really interesting process and moment for the public and for groups like mine to be engaging in this, because this is a meaningful moment to say, well, hang on a minute. Actually, you're making these assertions about energy and water. Some of them will make our emissions targets challenge. It's like impossible to meet. And some of them are just so lack the detail that we can't even really assess whether this is a good development. so it i feel in lots of ways like the rules are being written as we go not not by us but i mean

you know there isn't proper regulation that's kind of holistic that covers this sort of expansion of the infrastructure so part of the strategy is kind of where can you where can you make sure that there are legally binding provisions and protections within this planning process that changes future data center development for the better. Absolutely. And I think that's so important because, as you're saying, I feel like we're seeing so many jurisdictions trying to come up with these rules because all of a sudden they're being swamped with data centers, whether that's on the national level or kind of on the more local level. Even here in Canada, I remember there was kind of a fight a few months ago in Hamilton, Ontario, and part of the concern was that this data center was trying to get in before there were rules in place that would actually kind of regulate how it would operate, you know, and those sorts of things. So, yeah, I think that this is an incredibly important move. And I would imagine that taking these measures, you know, legally challenging a data center or, you know, just kind of, you know, having these oppositions to them, that that must

kind of create a momentum that forces the government to actually, you know, really listen to what civil society, what local residents are saying about these data centers, to have them need to respond in some kind of way instead of, as you were saying, just pushing through data centers because they believe that, you know, there's a positive economic impact to your system. Completely. I think that there has been a real shift in the last six to nine months of communities UK-wide coming together and resisting the data centers. We aren't seeing it in the way that I think you see it in North America or other parts of Europe. But I would say the debate is much newer in the UK. And it's been really fascinating to watch communities coming together with different interests, whether it's like a wildlife conservation group, whether it's people that have concerns about their rivers being so polluted, how can we possibly take a data centre here, given the water requirements, or whether it's environmental groups concerned about the emissions or whether it's housing groups concerned about data centers being prioritized over housing

it does feel like a the only way that we're going to win or the only way that this is going to that we're going to have responsible data center development that genuinely benefits the British public is if everyone makes a song and dance about it I think we're beginning to see that even though we're slightly further behind than than some other jurisdictions which is okay right you know because hopefully that means that the projects came a little bit later too right and so the kind of timeline is different. Like in Canada, it started here much later than in the United States, but it's like, it's accelerated really rapidly, which has been, I think, really great to see in part, as you mentioned over there, because we've seen what happens in what has happened in the United States. And that has kind of been an example for people and given people information that they wouldn't have had if it was, you know, just what was happening in Canada and what, right? Things would have been much slower then. You mentioned earlier the change of Prime Minister from Keir Starmer to Andy Burnham, still the Labour Party, you know, still a lot of the same people who would be surrounding him. We don't really have a good idea of what his AI and

data centre policy is yet. But are there any indications of where he might be going or when we might have a better idea of the position his government is going to take on this? Good question. So he last week came out with a very clear statement about how his government was very committed to the UK meeting the net zero targets by 2050. I think that's quite promising because he'd been sort of, some people were critical that he hadn't been kind of tough enough on the government's response to the kind of drought that we had over the summer. And so I think in some ways that's quite promising because that's, if he truly means that, there's no way that these Google data centres can be pushed through given what they mean for the emissions target. it. But I think it's too soon to say, to be honest, there's also a cross-party parliamentary committee looking at the expansion of data centres within the UK. So it will be interesting to see what their recommendations are. We don't yet know, is the honest answer. We don't

yet know what the Birmingham government will do as it relates to data centres and whether they will take the Starmer approach of all data centres at any cost because it might help the economy, or whether there's going to be a slightly more measured approach around mitigating the benefits with the harms. Hopefully that kind of feels inevitable, right? It feels almost like maybe the Sharma approach was kind of indicative of a certain moment when he took power and what the view was on AI and data centers at the time. And obviously that has shifted significantly in the UK just as in many other places over the term that he was Prime Minister, obviously he didn't last the full five years of a term of government in the UK. Yeah, but hopefully that means Andy Burnham is going to have to reassess and be kind of reflective of what we're seeing now, especially where he's trying to present himself as more of a man of the people, right? Yeah, I mean, we can only hope. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, actually, we can't only hope. We can also try and pressure them to do the right thing. Absolutely, exactly. Which is very much what you're doing and what we're seeing in many communities around the UK, right? And, you know, is Scotland already passing a moratorium? Hopefully that, you know, is kind of a good measure or a good indication of where things could be headed potentially. You know, I don't expect England to go that far, but it can at least move to have better restrictions in place. Before we move on to talking about South Africa, do you think there's anything else that is worth mentioning on, you know, the UK side of things that you think is important for listeners to understand or think about? I don't think so. I think we've kind of covered it am i allowed to ask you any questions in this or no you can if you want like yeah no i just i don't really know a whole lot about i'm really interested in like what canada's position is in this moment of kind of the way that the kind of changing relationship between canada and the u.s and what the kind of regulation or lack thereof looks like within canada and how that's

impacting development of data centers and ai infrastructure i think i would say it's very similar to the approach of Keir Starmer and his government, whereas, you know, it's very much AI is essential for the economy. It's going to drive future economic growth and productivity. And we need to be kind of all in on this, that we need to have these data centers to be built in Canada. So we have data centers in Canada, not just be relying on the U.S. But as you were saying, many of those data centers are being built by U.S. companies to serve these U.S. companies and their products. Even in the short period of time, our government wasn't in power as long as Keir Starmer's government. The mood has shifted so significantly over the past year that it's really hard to see how that view of AI and data centers can actually be carried through in the way that the government wants it to be. I think there's difficulty ahead, I think, for our government with relation to how it's seeing AI and seeing data centers. So yeah, I don't expect Mark Carney to be replaced with a new prime minister anytime soon

in the way that you guys had. But yeah, I think even, I think we were talking about this before we started recording, but the Canadian government released kind of like guidelines or like a framework for data center projects in Canada that are completely non-binding, completely advisory. But to me, it was an indication that they see where public opinion is and they are trying to start to get ahead of that, recognizing that if they don't, that a lot of these projects are going to get stalled or outright canceled because communities are going to be pushing back. So, yeah, that's how I would say things are in Canada at the moment, unfortunately. But I'm also really curious about how things are playing out in South Africa, right? Obviously, it's a very different context when we're talking about the UK and Canada because we know that there are a lot of issues with, you know, obviously the inequality in South Africa, but also the access to electricity, You know, kind of the rolling blackouts, the load shedding that they have down there, which you would imagine is an issue for these data centers that need kind of reliable and constant power.

So maybe to start off, you can give us kind of a picture of what we're seeing in South Africa on the data center front. Are there many data centers there? Are there many proposals for new data centers there? How is that playing out? South Africa has got the fastest data center expansion on the African continent and there are about 60 known data centers so far but there are lots in the works lots that are being planned And they generally foreign investments, so they're not South African data center operators. They are mostly American. So one of the biggest companies that's trying to build more data centers there is a company called Equinex. And one of the things that's been kind of interesting to observe, I'm obviously not based in South Africa, but we have one of our team members is there and we partner with amazing groups there. And one of the things that's been really interesting watching the conversation from afar has been there's a real conversation about who is this for. So even the industry's only own

lobby in South Africa, the Digital Council Africa, has said that South Africa's current data thing capacity is already sufficient for the country. And so that's quite revealing in terms of who benefits or who's intended to benefit from the development of data centers in South Africa. It's certainly not South Africans. It's obviously for the development of generation of AI, I think. One of the big challenges that our partners are talking about and experiencing is that the that there isn't really a public register of these facilities or where they are. There isn't sort of, you know, like there isn't any clear information about how many there are, what the providers are what the water or electricity use is and there isn't kind of a regulator or any part of government that has the sector's whole footprint if you like and one of the big issues i mean you were just talking about this a moment ago day zero is quite recent in many kind of capetonians memory cape town genuinely nearly ran out of water in

2018 there's a real question about resources for data centers and and like you also said there's a there's an energy issue too so we partner with a really amazing group and we partner with two amazing groups one called housing assembly and one called legal resource center and housing assembly are really concerned about foreign and their american companies being prioritized for housing some of which the people say barcelona um settlement is a region that's very close to where a big cakedown hyperscale data center is about to be built by equinex or where they're trying to build a data center and many of the people that we work with there can remember during day zero their tax were first to be turned off when there was a kind of contest between who got the water when it came down to the line. And so there's a real worry, actually, that data center development is being prioritized over housing that's been promised for 30 years in some instances.

It will get water and it will get energy and it will get electricity prioritized above some of the needs that the people of Cape Town really have. Yeah, it's a story I feel like we've heard in so many places as well, right? Like very unfortunately with housing developments being delayed or not getting, you know, the electricity or the water that they need in order to be built. Meanwhile, data centers are being built nearby. Or, you know, as you're saying, communities concerned about their continued access to water was something very much that I remember hearing about in South America, right, where people were facing data center fights and challenges down there. You mentioned this Equinix proposal, you know, this data center that I know that you launched a legal challenge against, along with, of course, your partners in South Africa. Can you tell me about, you know, why you took that decision to launch it against this particular data center and what stands out as being so egregious about it, you know, beyond what you were just saying?

Obviously, AIM structural development is not specific to any one country, as you and I have been talking about throughout this. they're being proposed and planned and developed everywhere and so we I think it's really important to fight on lots of different fronts in different jurisdictions and so yeah we've been partnering with two absolutely amazing groups in South Africa Legal Resource Centre is like a badass team of lawyers who fight all sorts of issues this is the first kind of case that they've brought on data centres and housing assembly fights for housing rights for people in Cape Town. And they and we are appealing the decision by Cape Town's planning committee or tribunal, sorry, the municipal planning tribunal to approve this huge hyperscale equinex data centre. And really, sadly, it was just waved through. I think one member of the planning tribunal had objections and voted against it.

But one of the things that's super revealing and one of the reasons that we felt it had to be challenged is that Equinix's application doesn't engage even on a basic level with the impact that the huge development will have on South Africa or on people or on water or on energy. I think the application was something like 24 pages and it didn't say I think it talked about traffic the impact that the data center might have on traffic but it failed to engage even with basic information about water use emissions diesel generators air pollution noise building plans it literally said nothing and when the developer was asked how much water the site would use The answer was, oh, we'll confirm that after approval. So the idea that the Cape Town Planning Tribunal can approve a data centre, which we know will be very water intensive in a city which nearly ran out of water just a few years ago, without properly understanding the impact that it will have on the water systems, seemed problematic to us.

And so we've filed a case. One of the things that's been really interesting to go back to the conversation that we were having about the UK and kind of people beginning to protest and be more active in challenging data centres developments in their own backyards. Cape Town's been a really interesting example of that as well. I would say in the last six to 12 months, Housing Assembly has led really amazing kind of protests and thoughtful opposition to data centres. You know, they're certainly not saying no data centres should be built, but I think they're saying, like, let's have a conversation about it. Let's have a public conversation about the impact that these data centres will have on the housing plans and on energy and water in South Africa. Absolutely. Let's just not leave it to the private companies to do whatever it is they want. Let's talk about what it's going to mean for us and our communities and the way that we live here and not just let them, you know, build their big data center because that's what they've decided they want to do now. It's funny you mentioned they mentioned the traffic.

And in my mind, I was like, OK, so are they spinning it as though the traffic is going to be bad because don't worry, we're going to have like a lot of jobs. or don't worry, the traffic impact won't be too bad because there's not actually many people who are going to work in this building. I was surprised. I think they were just doing what they could to avoid talking about the real issue. Yeah, of course. I completely agree and understand. It was just, you know, that was the thing that came to mind. It's like, are they going to try to frame it as though, like, don't worry, no traffic impact or, like, whoa, you know, we're going to have to expand some roads here because we're going to have so many workers, you know, which is like, you know, not true at all. But you mentioned in the UK that obviously there's not a lot of planning rules around data centers right now, but the information that is provided does have to be public. I guess in the case of South Africa, you know, again, you probably don't have these planning rules in place. And so the data centers are just trying to like push through before anything like that can be brought into being. And I'm sure that they're lobbying hard to make sure that even that won't happen, right?

Something that's been interesting is that the South African Human Rights Commission actually launched an inquiry this year to investigate the human rights, environmental and governance implications of the kind of huge expansion of data centres. And it's great that that's happening. But as far as I understand it from Legal Resource Centre and from Housing Assembly, is that there is a complete kind of lack of a framework or regulatory framework around this expansion. and our partners actually put in a really good submission to the to the inquiry and some of the things that they were calling or calling for is that actually as a step one there needs to be like a participatory national level inquiry into the needs scale and impact of data center development which I mean when you hit when I read that I was like yeah of course that's what step one should be and then they also talk about needing a kind of independent assessment of the sectors like ecological and economic costs and benefits which i also really like the idea of and then what they're saying is that governments the government together with communities and with other groups and with

other stakeholders should be actively considering a pause like in this moment until they have the answers to one and two right which also makes sense to me and then also they were calling for like an independent panel or group to kind of monitor the water electricity and land use in an ongoing way given actually there's such an absence of information from American developers that are coming in with these proposals and so you know that that inquiry has only just finished and so it will be interesting to see what their recommendations are and whether they're indeed adopted but there's a real moment I think of building like growing opposition to data center expansion, given the kind of lack of regulatory framework and the lack of community consent and the lack of kind of public conversation around what this means for people. Absolutely. And it feels like those demands are like exactly the types of things that we should be demanding, right? You know, we should have that information. We should be having that conversation. There should be a pause until we do have better insight, a better idea of what we

actually need, you know, what is actually happening. Can I ask you, you know, before we start to close off our conversation, when we're looking at South Africa, I imagine the government's approach is also very much, you know, we are looking for this investment, you know, these tech companies want to go in, we should be welcoming this kind of a thing for the economic impact as so many other governments are. But also then when we see the kind of growth of the data centers there, and if South Africa itself already has what it needs, would I be right in assuming that part of the goal is not just to serve South Africa, but to be kind of like the hub for a much larger swath of Africa for these companies as they're moving in? I think that's right. I think in the same way as countries all over the world. I think the story is the same from big tech. The story is we will invest billions. It will benefit your countries. It will benefit your economies. Nobody needs to worry because we're going to develop closed loop systems for cooling and we're going to come up with our own energy.

Nobody needs to worry about these things. And I think the reality is very different. And that is the same story that's being told in South Africa, I think. And I think our partners are totally right to be asking the questions about who benefits from this development and what the economic benefit is to South Africa. And is it worth what we know the costs to be? I think it's the same playbook that we're seeing all over the place. Yeah, unsurprisingly, you know, unfortunately. And, you know, with its own, I'm sure, like, you know, specific characteristics for the case of South Africa, but really the same kind of cut and thrust as anywhere else. Right. As we as we close off our conversation, I just broadly wondering, you know, we've talked about the UK. Right. And what is going on there and this real push to build out the data centers, the desire by government to have them be built and the growing opposition that we're seeing. We've obviously talked about South Africa and the growing opposition there as more of these data center companies are moving in. Where do you see this all going from here?

How do you think this is going to develop into the future? Are there kind of hopeful signs that you are seeing in your work? And of course, what kind of role do you think for legal challenges is there in challenging these efforts by the big tech companies? I feel really hopeful. I think we are in a moment of the tech and AI bros trying to put up a bit of a smokescreen, which is everybody should be worried about AI wiping out humanity in 10 years. and actually what that slightly distracts us from is the very real harms that we and societies and communities all over the world are experiencing as a result of the kind of unchecked expansion of AI and particularly generative AI in the last few years and the impact that that has on our climate and on other parts of society but I think regulation is coming, regulation has to come

regulation is what needs to happen here regulate like we cannot continue down a path of allowing a handful of largely american men to make decisions about the societies and the climate that we live in and i think globally states are beginning to wake up and to address that a little too late in my opinion but still and i think there's a really important moment for the momentum that has been building all over the world in the last few years like we aren't going to get the right regulation and the right development of AI infrastructure unless we fight for it. And I personally am very like in awe of all of the fights all over the world, whether they're legal, whether they're kind of community resistance, whether they're policy. I think the only way we're going to get what we want is if we continue taking these fights to our lawmakers and to our decision makers and causing a huge fuss. And I'm hopeful that the tide is beginning to turn, I think. I completely agree with you on that

I also feel very hopeful seeing all of those developments and I completely agree with you on the distraction and smokescreen that they're trying to do right now which is a whole other topic that we can't get into in this conversation but Martha it was so great to learn more about your work what you're seeing in the places where you're operating and the progress being made in pushing back against these data centers and these major tech companies thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. Martha Dark is co-executive director of Fox Club. Tech Won't Save Us is made in partnership with The Nation magazine and is hosted by me, Paris Marks. Production is by Kylie Hewson. Tech Won't Save Us relies on the support of listeners like you to keep providing critical perspectives on the tech industry. You can join hundreds of other supporters by going to patreon.com slash techwon'tsaveus and making a pledge of your own. Plus, you can pre-order my new book, Hyperscale, at hyperscalebook.com. Thanks for listening, and make sure to come back next week. Thank you.